Usergroups divided by sex

[Dina]

dreams:

As have been said: of course everyone will be able to choose to join a usergroup, just as everyone can choose to join a usergroup or not now too. (Or is there something I've missed about this? Isn't it a free choice to join a usergroup?)

In my first post in this thread I write:

* Girls who has been sexual abused can hopefully feel more safe with starting threads about it. The same thing when it's about boys.

Societies prejudices should not be passed on here.

Well, members of BUS are also a part of the society. People are the society which mean that it's people who got the prejudices. And BUS is not excluded in any way from this. Creating places to discuss these issues wouldn't in any way help growing the prejudices I believe.

Men are allowed to cry and allowed to fell emotions just like women.

I'm feeling like being quite unprovoced misunderstood here. I don't think I've ever stated anything meaning that I believe men should be treated like an own specie or that they can't cry or feel.

I'm aware that my suggestion may make some people associate to other things than I'm actually talking about here but I would like to nicely ask people to read what I've written and not just to suppose stuff which I feel has been done in a few posts. I'm me. I'm not someone else with a list of opinions which automatically match someone else's opinion. If something I've written could be read as if I thought men is something else than women, or that they can't feel, or whatever, then I'd really like to be qouted so I get a chance to explain what I meant.

I understand that my first post where I mentioned SA as a subject to be discussed in these usergroups have created questions why I've also carefully tried to explain it several times but I don't know how to make it more clear than I've already done.

As I said before I would talk for these groups even if we were not allowed to talk about SA.

/Dina -quite a bit stressed for the moment and eager to get offline

[silent_scream]

It's important to remember the mods and admins were members not so long ago

I still am a member

lol*shocked* you are??? *hides* I hope people knew what I meant

[silent_scream]

Hi Dina

I am wondering: why do you not like the idea of people putting in their posts *only for girls/boys please* and just trusting people as much as you can on an internet forum?




Kazz

[Dina]

silent_scream:

I'll quote myself:

The preposition about adding in the topic-line that for example no men are wanted to read the post is not really working because of a very old principle: What is not allowed but will not be discovered will always be done.

Observe though that, for unknown reason, the word purposal has been exchanged to preposition! (Who did that?!)

And it's possible of course, like have been mentioned, that men for example fool everyone by pretending to be a woman, but that too I've responded to; I don't think it will be such a big deal cause everyone will suppose that everyone is who they claim they are and if someone is rude or obviously only in the group to disturb and destroy then that person shouldn't be there at all, no matter which sex the person belong to. But I don't think it will be a major problem. Though I'm very sure of that men is reading a "girl-marked" post and vice versa as it is now.

[mallie]

you wouldn't be able to stop men reading things, but if you request that they don't reply, it should be complied with. Perhaps some degree of enforcing that could be enacted. If a male replies and you've requested that not happen, the reply could be removed.

Creating places to discuss these issues wouldn't in any way help growing the prejudices I believe.

I'm still not understanding why separate groups would be useful here. Surely in order to discuss and overcome these prejudices, removing the barriers in this safe place would be beneficial. Having arguments from both sides of the fence is usually more helpful than not.

[silent_scream]

But asking people not to read on the main forum holds as much *trust* issues as having two boards, one where someone could lie and get into. If it doesn't make a difference which one you do, because either way people are going to look (supposing or no supposing) then what's the point in doing it?

[sassy koala]

I wasn't completely read all the replys, skimmed them more b/c I have troubles reading long posts. poor concentration i guess.
anyways, I'm agains the ide of a sexually abused forum. I think there are so many people on this site that have been Abused that it could almost make an entirely different board. Also, as other's have pointed out, this is mainly about self-injury support. That is the purpose of this board. And I"m sure there are many other groups out there that deal specifically and mainly with sexual abuse.
I like the fact that we don't have our gender next to our names. I think that you could tend to slant your responses depending on the gender you are replying to. And that having so many non-genderspecific names is neat. That way I (at least) look beyond the gender, and can look at the real issue and give the best response I am able.

just mythoughts.

[caterpillargirl]

very much in agreement with dan's first post.

seriously, the board is so huge nowadays, that it's near impossible to be an active member on every board like i used to be, and its impossible to keep up with everything. i don't think we need any more subdivisions.

this is a self-injury forum. there are several good abuse forums out there, that are pretty easy to find if you or any of our other members want to go look.

any posts about abuse can be posted in the main forum. if you don't want men to reply to your post, say so. you're allowed to state which kind of replies you want, and people have to abide by that.

[Dina]

Quote:
The preposition about adding in the topic-line that for example no men are wanted to read the post is not really working because of a very old principle: What is not allowed but will not be discovered will always be done.
Observe though that, for unknown reason, the word purposal has been exchanged to preposition! (Who did that?!)

Purposal? Proposal? I know it's NOT preposition but can someone please help me with the correct word and spelling here! Otherwise I will keep on going not able to ever stop... And non of us really want that I think...

[mama]

Proposal is what you're looking for.l

Carolyn~aka~mama

[dreams]

A general belief is that self injuring is specific for young girls. How does that affect boys who self injure? How are boys expected to handle their feelings?

Is there an expectation about how girls should handle their feelings, like anger? What would happen if a girl broke a door out of anger instead of turning it towards herself? Is there differences from how a boy would be treated?

I feel that both of these are actually reinforcing prejudices

Well, members of BUS are also a part of the society. People are the society which mean that it's people who got the prejudices. And BUS is not excluded in any way from this. Creating places to discuss these issues wouldn't in any way help growing the prejudices I believe.

Agreeing with prejudices is wrong – by separating groups you are agreeing with and supporting something I believe to be inherently wrong. Murders exist just like prejudices but we don’t go around saying its ok to be a murderer. And we shouldn’t go around saying it’s ok to have prejudices.

Is there an expectation about how girls should handle their feelings, like anger? What would happen if a girl broke a door out of anger instead of turning it towards herself? Is there differencies from how a boy would be treated?

Um no. If someone broke a door they would get told off by the person who owned the door.

Some people find themselves searching for validation from the opposite sex. The separatistic usergroups would be free zones when it's about that.

Some people find themselves feeling forced to nurse (as girls) or protect (as boys). Also here the separatistic usergroups would be free zones.

?????

I don’t know where you get these feelings and would like an example please. I Also don’t understand how you can substantiate this with ‘some people’ . Do merely mean <b> I </b> and am assuming other people feel the same despite:

I'm not someone else with a list of opinions which automatically match someone else's opinion

Girls who has been sexual abused can hopefully feel more safe with starting threads about it. The same thing when it's about boys.

As Laura has said this would be a place to talk about feelings –

<b> Scenario </b>

A Girl has been sexually abused by her stepfather. They could never tell anyone now because they wouldn’t believe her and there is no evidence to support her accusations- she still doesn’t feel comfortable in her own house and is asking for help to deal with her feelings. She posts on the ‘girls only’ board. No one else on there can offer any advice as they have only either told people or been sexually abused by people they are no longer forced to be around.

However had she posted on the main board. There was a guy who was living through the same situation. A guy who put a lock on his door, made sure he was constantly around other family members in the house and got involved in lots of after school clubs etc to keep him away from the house as much as possible. A guy who very much understands the feelings but a guy who would have not been able to see or respond to a previous post.

By excluding a group of people you could well be excluding the most useful help that you could get.

Discussing injuries on the genitals will maybe have it's more natural place for some.

Here’s one on main

It’s is posted about on main. Don’t see why its needs a separate place. This is one of my posts so I know its there.

I'm aware that my suggestion may make some people associate to other things than I'm actually talking about here but I would like to nicely ask people to read what I've written and not just to suppose stuff which I feel has been done in a few posts. I'm me. I'm not someone else with a list of opinions which automatically match someone else's opinion. If something I've written could be read as if I thought men is something else than women, or that they can't feel, or whatever, then I'd really like to be quoted so I get a chance to explain what I meant.

I feel very attacked by the above statement. The words that you have used caused me to believe that they were specifically against me. That makes me feel invalidated as if my feelings are of little significance. <i> And that is not trying to attack you merely state how I am feeling. </i>

I would also like to give a couple of other scenarios where I feel that having a different user group would infact be destructive

<b> scenario 1 </b>

A girl posts on the ‘girls’ board about having really painful periods. She gets a whole heap of replies telling her that going on the pill reduces period pain.

A girl posts the same post on main she gets reply from a guy saying:

‘my girlfriend had pains so bad she was in bed for days during her period. She went to the Dr and had some investigations and they found out she has Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS) after removing a couple of cysts with an endoscope she is now much better. I would suggest that you tell the Dr why you are considering going on the pill and try to tell him how ‘bad’ your pains are. Like are you forced to stay in bed? How long for? Etc. If there is something medically wrong it’s better to get it sorted before it gets any worse.’

A different and perhaps useful perspective

<b> Scenario 2 </b>

A girl is pregnant. She and her boyfriend have decided that she will have an abortion but she is now having second thoughts.

Is followed on ‘girl’ board by a lot of male bashing and saying that she should do whatever is best for her and males are all inconsiderate and only out for what’s best for them etc.

On Main she could also have got the reply:

‘I know if it was my girlfriend I would like to know how she was feeling. Have you talked to him? Did you or he first suggest the abortion? Is it possible that he was going along with it because he thought that was what you wanted? If you decide to have the baby it doesn’t automatically mean he will leave you (we’re not all B******s you know). Talk to him seriously about your doubts. You never know he might be having the same ones too.’

To me a far more helpful reply.

<b> scenario 3 </b>

Any relationship problem. It is sometimes extremely helpful to get ‘help from the other side’ of the problem so you can try to understand where the other person might be coming from.

<b> Perhaps you could provide me with a scenario where getting a reply from a male would be destructive or unhelpful. </b>

dreams

[guest11]

Interesting that this thread now seems to be about how males can hurt females... I can say that I have given some very helpful replies to girls about girl topics, and the girls in question have found my replies thoughtful and considerate. And I'm male. Hmm...

[Dina]

Mama: Thank you!! Proposal. Aaah. *feeling very relieved* Hum. Please anyone feel free to correct me when I write words like preposition instead of proposal... OK?

dreams:

The words that you have used caused me to believe that they were specifically against me. That makes me feel invalidated as if my feelings are of little significance. And that is not trying to attack you merely state how I am feeling.

I'm sorry you're feeling attacked by me feeling misunderstood. I hope we can sort this out with my following answer. I do mean what I write, but mistakes can always be made by anyone. Maybe I should have point out a few more examples, not only yours, but it wasn't at all meant as an attack towards you. Several replies to my suggestion was about me wanting to split the board into two, or create a group only for sexual abused, and I have explained a few times now that the suggestion is meant to be neither and that's why I wanted to be quoted, not only by you. If I somewhere have written that the whole board will be divided or that everyone will be forced to join then I would really like to see my own words regarding it so I get a chance to explain my specific expression. And you gave me that chance in your last post, thank you.

The first quote of me you take as an example is not read as I meant to write it. I write that it's a "general belief", I don't write anything about true or false only establishing a "general belief". Though I want to assure you that I do not at all agree with it. And the second part of same quote is questions. No statements.

Agreeing with prejudices is wrong – by separating groups you are agreeing with and supporting something I believe to be inherently wrong. Murders exist just like prejudices but we don’t go around saying its ok to be a murderer. And we shouldn’t go around saying it’s ok to have prejudices.

Yes, agreeing with false prejudices is not ultimate and it does create problems. Though I don't at all see how it would be to agree with that if a place was created where women could talk with only women, and men with only men. Do you think in general that women shouldn't talk alone in a room, or same with men? Maybe I once again should make clear that it's not a question about divide the board into two, the mainboard would remain exactly the same although with two more usergroups which would be free to join or not. And if you join it you will still have the rest of the board looking exactly the same as before, with possibilities to talk with both men and women.

Um no. If someone broke a door they would get told off by the person who owned the door.

I don't agree with you here. People in general do have expectations about how a woman should react when feeling anger and other expectations on men. These expectations create a lot of frustration within both women and men who don't live up to those. But it's totally ok that we don't have the same experiences and the same "glasses" here.

I don’t know where you get these feelings and would like an example please. I Also don’t understand how you can substantiate this with ‘some people’ . Do merely mean I

No, usually I mean what I write and you've quoted me correctly. Some people do find themselves searching for validation from the opposite sex and some people do find themselves forced to act according to the norm. This I know after years of structured discussions focused on gender with both women and men. If you don't feel the same then it's really good for you but I know for a fact that there is many people who do feel trapped in their specific gender role.

As Laura has said this would be a place to talk about feelings

Yes, and I've replied to that too and I do understand that and I do not want to change it. Those scenarios you gave were not handling very much feelings though, but mostly practical stuff. I've seen your example with your own post regarding injuries on genitals before. What I would like to discuss in a specified usergroup regarding your own scenarios would sound more like this: What do you think about been sexual abused by someone you trust? Would it differ from if it was someone you didn't know? How do you feel about yourself when thinking about it? How does it make you feel about men in general? Or women in general? Are you scared it will happen again? How does it make you feel thinking about being with another man? If you are in a relationship, how do you make it work with intimacy? Do you and your boyfriend have a plan on how to deal with it?
And what do you think and/or feel before injuring your genitals? How do you feel after? How does the injuries affect your lovelife? Is it even possible to have a lovelife or is there flashbacks maybe, from what and how? How do you deal with touching at all?
And how does it make you feel to be pregnant? Fears? Nervousity? Reminders? Is an abortion even an alternative? How would it make me feel to get rid of the foetus? Am I ready to give birth to a child and take care of it?
And what does menstruation symbolize to me? Does that make me injure my genitals? Am I afraid of it? Why? Why not? What if I feel disgusted by it? Why do I do that? How do I handle it?
And how has it affected me to be beaten by my boyfriend? How has it affected my behaviour and sexuality that my father sexualized me as a little girl or teenager, teeling me things like "You look hot in that" or "The boys will go crazy when you wear that skirt"? Has it affected me that my father watched porn? Or that my mother searched for validation by having several sexpartners at home when I knew about it? Do I feel disgusted at the same time as I enjoy making love to my boyfriend? Why is that? What do I think about it?

Many criterias for diagnozis regarding self harm does not include traumas specific for women or may more or less define reactions, behaviours and characters specific to women as pathological. Examples of traumas which are not included in PTSD is sexual harassment, domestic violence, miscarrage and abortions. Since those traumas are not included womens behaviour and pain may be classified as another disorder and her feelings will be invalidated. I think this is important to discuss.

Well this is all built on your scenarios. I could exemplify more and with my own scenarios if you want to. Just ask.

I'm really sorry about my long posts but I'm suffering of a tendency to overexplain myself (and trying to balance that I may not explain myself enough sometimes).

/Dina - trying hard to stand up and leave for the store but not succeeding very well

[Dina]

Deskana:

I think it do affect men how women are treated. I think men do have a lot of feelings about that. And I know many men who feel really bad about it, depressed and angry, and it doesn't help at all that those feelings are not accepted for men to have in general. It's a guilt and shame mixed with sadness and frustration. Many men who can't feel safe within the role they are expected to have. That would make anyone wanna hurt themselves I think.

[guest11]

I'm really unclear as to what your post was referring to... the reply seems to have been directed at me, but it also seems to bear no relevance to what I'm posted...

I'm a little confused. Can you explain what you meant?

[Dina]

Deskana:

I understand your confusion. Somehow I read your first line as it was now focus on something which concern only women. And since it has been focus on what women could discuss in their group I wanted to say something about the malegroup.

Sorry.

And I will create a thread on Debating Society for discussing gender issues through a political and biogical perspective. Which is a discussion which belong there, and not here, though it's hard to discuss where we are now without those perspectives. So I'll move the discussion there tonight or tomorrow.

Take care!

/Dina

[bojangles]

hey dina,
can i clarify something?
would males be able to access the female board and females access the male board? or would everyone be able to sign on for one or both of these usergroups? i'm just a tad confused as to what is actually being suggested here, but it is 2 in the morning and my brain ain' functioning the best
~bojjie

[dreams]

Oh now bojie has a point,

I was assuming you meant that only boys could read the boys forum and only girls could read the girls forum. Is that right??

My main problem with this is the 'secrecy' thing. There being a part of the board I can't read - somewhere where things are going on you might not know about. The only board that compares with something like that is F+F private board and I remember the uproar when that was first decided on! I think it comes out of my insecurities i wouldn't want it to be possible for things to be going on i didn't know about. I know it would be moderated but still..................

Also who would moderate such a board. Would deb be allowed access to the male board what about the other female admins would they or would male moderators have to be found???

Another practicle query how would people with more than one personality be treated. What if one or more of their alters were male and one or more female?

[ben]

Another practicle query how would people with more than one personality be treated. What if one or more of their alters were male and one or more female?

Ah - easy - here it's 'one body one username'.

Keeps things simple and straightforward.

[mama]

Copied from bojjie's post.

I've been here a loooooong time, in fact so long ago, that there were only two forums and reading the posts was a nightmare.

I just looked and as of today, we have 18 forums (not including the admin/tech or the ones accessible by mods or admins only), 8 administrators (and I'm not including ben or deb here) and 23 moderators. Bus averages over a thousand posts per day as it is and an average of 60 topics per day.

Now, if we added forums for each topic that was discussed (in this post or others), we'd be adding 4 new forums, each of those forums would have to have a least 2 mods (3 if they're very active) and we'd probably have to add at least two new admins.

This place is daunting enough for new users. Are we sure that we want to make it more complicated?

Carolyn