Usergroups divided by sex

[Dina]

This suggestion may already been up for discussion. If that's the case I'd be glad to get a link to the thread where it was held.

I'm starting to get a grip on BUS now and though I can miss a few stuff I don't think there's much BUS is missing for the moment, except from two specific usergroups divided by sex. I asked Laura as an admin a while ago about a specific place for those who have been sexual abused in some way and she responded that it has been discussed but BUS don't want to make differences between the causes for self harm, which I completly understand and kind of agree about.
I've been thinking since then and read some threads in here and here comes my main arguments for two new usergroups, one for women and one for men:

* A general belief is that self injuring is specific for young girls. How does that affect boys who self injure? How are boys expected to handle their feelings?

* Is there an expectation about how girls should handle their feelings, like anger? What would happen if a girl broke a door out of anger instead of turning it towards herself? Is there differencies from how a boy would be treated?

* Some people find themselves searching for validation from the opposite sex. The separatistic usergroups would be free zones when it's about that.

* Some people find themselves feeling forced to nurse (as girls) or protect (as boys). Also here the separatistic usergroups would be free zones.

* Girls who has been sexual abused can hopefully feel more safe with starting threads about it. The same thing when it's about boys.

* Discussing injuries on the genitals will maybe have it's more natural place for some.

(I do understand that I am generalizing. My apoligies to those who feel offended by it.)

This idea can of course be viewed form a feministic perspective but also from a common human one. Everyone can probably agree about that there is differencies between sexes. Why there is differencies or where they start or end is not really important here. The by sex separatistic usergroups are not meant to become groups for discussing cars and blue colours vs. tampoons and pink colours, neither groups for discussing political issues (there is already one group for that). The reason is to create a place to discuss important issues strongly related to self harm.

I'm not per defintion pro separatistic forums, but on BUS I do believe it would be of great value for understanding parts of one's own self harm.

But you've probably already heard all these arguments... Feel free to give me a link!

(Oh and it's possible that I've found a totally new way to use the word "divided"... In my Swedish head it sounds good though...)

[mallie]

Ultimately such decisions are up to Deb, but I thought I'd throw my own thoughts in here for discussion.

Statistically, more females self injure than males. This only covers what people get help for, and what is reported, it may not reflect reality. Even on BUS this pattern is seen (see poll) SI is not specific to young girls, even if more common amongst them.

That doesn't mean that appropriate ways to deal with emotions would differ between males and females. There are differences between males and females that can be very important, but BUS focuses on feelings, which are universal.

I haven't seen differential treatment of people here based on gender. Personally, I'd respond the same way to the same kind of post, whether made by a female or a male. I can't see where gender comes into self harm, and how that would be a basis for separation.

I can understand where for people who have been sexually abused there might be discomfort with posting, but I would think it would be more appropriate to suggest adding an extra line to the post asking for responses only from (gender) rather than having exclusive groups, if this is a really important thing for them.

I think being able to get input from a variety of people is useful. Limiting things makes it less likely to get the responses that would be helpful.

[guest11]

At the risk of repeating other people, this is a self harm board, not a sexual abuse board. I really don't want to sound insensetive, but that is the case. There are boards focussed specifically on sexual abuse elsewhere on the internet.

Secondly, I agree with the notion that this will divide the board. If there becomes a section for sexual abuse, someone else will raise the point that their reasons for self harm - such as other forms of abuse - are no less valid than sexual abuse and that they also deserve a section on BUS. Before you know it there are a multitude of forums. Aside from losing ease of navigation, this will also have a detrimental effect on the posts. Since there will be more forums, and the same amount of users, people will stick to certain forums, and people will get less replies. Plus adding more forums means getting more moderators and admins.

Just my thoughts. In actuality, I have no say in the matter of whether a new forum is adopted or not.

Dan

[Proximity]

a few of my thoughts on why this isn't something I'd like to see

1.) Not everyone on BUS defines themself with one sex or gender, whether because of personal gender identification or because of discomfort with a bianary system, or simply because they do not choose to identify themselves on BUS by sex or gender. Some BUSsers identify with the opposite gender to their sex .. which group should these BUSsers join? Should we then start more than two groups? A group for FTM BUSsers another for MTFs, or a general gender-queer group? What about BUSsers who are transexual, too, who may have biological gender characteristics of both the male and female sexes, or those who are in the process of undergoing hormone or surgical changes to alter their sex? I also then wonder if people would want groups specific to their sexual orientation, that then we would be splitting further .. one for straight men, one for straight women, one for gay men, lesbian women, bisexual men, bisexual women, undefined men, undefined women, questioning men, questioning women, transgendered women who love women, transgendered women who love men, transgendered men who love women, transgendered men who love men.. *deep breath* .. do you see where this might get out of hand?
and if it *didn't* get out of hand .. we wouldn't be being very inclusive ..

2.)Confirmation of the sex or the gender of any BUSser isn't really something we can do .. so there would be no way to tell that there were not males in the female group, or females in the male group. Also, how would we administratively handle someone who was in the process of transitioning gender or sex, to move him or her from one group to the other? And how would the other members of the group feel about this? For example, if it's a group for women, but there is someone with a penis there, will some women react badly, or feel less safe? Same for men.

3.)It is already easy to ask for gender-specific advice on BUS, many people post and say things like "I would like to hear from other women," or "I would like to hear from other men," .. some even say "only read if you're a girl" and such, though this is not a rule which is enforced, and clearly it is frequently broken.
My best suggestion is that if someone has questions or concerns that they are not comfortable discussing in a mixed-gender/sex group, that he or she asks a general question, and asks if anyone would be OK with discussing it with him or her via private message. Additionally, there are other boards on the web that are dedicated specifically to gender-specific issues. Since we couldn't confirm the gender of the posters in a usergroup anyhow, I don't think we would create a space that was significantly more "safe" for anyone, anyhow.

4.) In terms of understanding how self injury is different for people of different experience (males/females or whatever) I think it's actually really valuable to have different sides reading and responding to the discussion.. like if one person says "I think I'm treated like XYZ because I'm female, and I SI" then someone else might reply, "well, I'm male and I SI, but I'm treated very similarly" and someone else might say, "I'm also female, but I've never been treated like that" ..
this is just an example.

5.) I think that separating people away from everything that makes them uncomfortable is not the most conducive environment to healing. I'm not saying that it's good to just throw everything that someone can't handle at them at once, but I think that in creating gender-specific communities, we wouldn't be doing anyone any favors if they were having trouble learning to relate to the opposite gender. I think that if problems with the opposite gender are that intense, then it would be better to find somewhere where it could be guarenteed (or more guarenteed) that there are not "imposters" of the opposite gender in the user-group. And somewhere specific to that sort of intense problem in dealing with the opposite gender (or sex).

6.) People offer advice and thoughts not only based on their own experince, but based on their understandings of the world, and on their learned experience, stories they hear, or examples that they see in other people ..
I have heard males give amazing insight and advice into things that may be fundamentally female problems, and I have read females giving what (I thought at least) was very good insight into what was a more fundamentally male problem. Those of us who are female .. well most of us have fathers, or brothers, or friends etc. who are male, .. so we know some about males. Same for the males, they know women and girls, too, so they do know some things that might be helpful for a female to hear.


just my thoughts.

prox.
[nothing]

[Dina]

Hey again... I have read your replies several times and will now reply to them, hoping to not miss any of your points.

Mallie wrote:
That doesn't mean that appropriate ways to deal with emotions would differ between males and females. There are differences between males and females that can be very important, but BUS focuses on feelings, which are universal.

My reply:

Indeed feelings are universal, not at all depending on sex, though I don't agree when you say that there's no expectations on how a woman or a man should handle them. There can of course be a will to deal with feelings in other ways than the most accepted or expectated way but for a person also struggling with issues like self harm I think it may be really tough to not live up to the specific gender roles. There's many feelings which are considered to be "male" or "female" generally in society and since BUS definitely is about feelings and how to cope with them I think it's important for BUS to put some light on that issue.

Mallie wrote:
I haven't seen differential treatment of people here based on gender.

My reply:

A good thing with BUS is that sex is not part of the personal profile to fill in. That makes everyone equal about that part. A not so good thing which follows is that generally you have to know the person some before you know and then it's easy to be blinded by the specific person's extraordinary personality! No, well it may be true sometimes but the truth is probably that not many get very surprised really because, generally (generally I like generalizing) it's easy to see only by a post if the messenger is woman or man. Even on BUS. And since people write different depending on which sex they belong to it's not so far away to also come to the conclusion that people act different depending on the same. (If this is a good or bad thing is a discussion which do not belong in this thread I believe.)


Mallie wrote:
I can't see where gender comes into self harm

My reply:

Well, there is quite a few researchers who maintain that gender and sex indeed has to do with self harm, more or less. If BUS has already rejected those ideas then of course it's no point for me to discuss the issue here further really.

The preposition about adding in the topic-line that for example no men are wanted to read the post is not really working because of a very old principle: What is not allowed but will not be discovered will always be done.

Mallie wrote:
I think being able to get input from a variety of people is useful. Limiting things makes it less likely to get the responses that would be helpful.

My reply:

I think it's more limited when you can't at all choose the limitation. Variety can and will be found among just women, or just men, too. And for those who sometimes or always want the specific variety of people with different sex there will still be the ordinary board.

Deskana wrote:
this is a self harm board, not a sexual abuse board

My reply:

I assure you that I'm aware of the theme of the board. This kind of voluntary and only partly separatism will have as a benefit that it will create a free zone to discuss sexual abuse, although this is not the mainpurpose. It would be much easier in that case to simply call the usergroup "Sexual abused".

Deskana:
Before you know it there are a multitude of forums.

I:

I don't think it's a good idea to be against the creation of a new usergroup or branch because of the risk of even another one. Though I do understand your concern I think the question "Will it be helpful in any way to discuss my self harm or the feelings related to self harm with only people of my own sex?" is more relevent.

Proximity, I answer without quoting only for the reason that it's easier.

My reply to Proximity's post:

1) Yes, I'm aware of the issue here. Unfortunately there will always be people who don't find themselves to fit in, no matter type of division. I want again to point out that my preposition is something which is free for everyone to join or not and that, not only because of obvious reasons, there will not be any test to prove anyone's sex.
About the multiplied forums I think I answered above.

2) Well I don't think it's a big deal how someone's genitals look like. And if someone feel the need to fool anyone about their sex then I'm thinking that that person probably need to do so for the moment. I don't think it will affect the rest of the members much since no one will know and everyone will suppose that the person is who she/he claims to be and everyone will treat each other and discuss according to that. And that is, I think, the point. Probably someone will still not feel safe, like you say, but I still think it would turn out to be good for some.

3) Parts here I've already answered... ... Yes, there is probably gender specified boards somewhere, but is there someone with the purpose to discuss self harm? I know there is boards out there to discuss religion or health, and boards for people of specific age, but it's probably not at all common to have a self harmer's perspective, that's were BUS is important.

4) Yup, but I'd like to say this again: I think it's more limited when you can't at all choose the limitation and that the experiences will differ, I promise. That we can see even in this discussion for example.

5) The ordinary board will still be here. It will be on the top of the page when you get online and you will always be reminded that there is a world with other people and with good care from others in the usergroup hopefully those who are that afraid of the opposite sex will sooner or later feel strong enough to join the mixed parts of the board.

6) Yup, for that purpose the rest of BUS will not be closed down and fall into decay. I do not want to reduce BUS in any way, I want to add a function which will be free to everyone to use or not as they like.

/Dina -tired but keep going

[ChaseThisLight]

Hmm I'm not convinced. I guess I don't understand why everything you want addressed cannot be addressed on the main board. And it is a good point that this is a self harm board, not a sexual abuse board. There are people here that have been sexually abused, and I'm fairly certain there are people on sexual abuse forums that self injure. I hope that didn't come across as being mean. I do not see what purpose gender plays on self-injury at all.

[Laura]

Hiya

I'm speaking as Laura here, not as admin. Actually, I've just noticed that all the replies so far have been from board staff - I'd like to reassure you that it's not that we are all ganging up to squash your idea; it's just a reflection of who normally reads the Administrivia board regularly.

OK. My gut reaction is that I don't like the idea, and I agree with many of the arguments above against it. But also, I don't fully understand the advantages either.

Could you say a bit more about that? Your first two reasons you listed - I don't understand why they would be better discussed in a separate space. Also, a few times you talked of "free zones" - did you mean "zones where it can be discussed freely" or "zone that are free of such discussion"?
Am I right in thinking that the main reason for you is the one about wanting to discuss SA without men reading? Would it still feel safer than main board even if you knew that there were probably people who had lied about their gender to get in?

A good thing with BUS is that sex is not part of the personal profile to fill in.

That's very interesting. There's a huge thread on this forum with a lot of people arguing that sex should be included in the profile. Thoughts?

[Puts admin hat back on for a moment] In general, we do have a reluctance to create new forums unless the reasons are compelling. Please don't take this personally cos it isn't (e.g. see Space Man's suggestion of a Relationships forum).
I'd still like to hear more about the advantages you see in this, cos maybe we can find some way to make things better without creating a whole new space.

Thanks for this discussion
Laura

[Dina]

Laura:
But also, I don't fully understand the advantages either.

Thank you Laura, I think you've point out what I should answer here to make the discussion a little more understandable. I will come to that shortly.

Yes I have read the thread about Relationship. And I have looked up the word "compelling" in the dictionary to be sure of the meaning of it since it was used frequently. And I try to form a discussion from that.

It doesn't surprise me that it's been a discussion about the profile. Myself haven't been to many boards where sex is not chooseable in profile. I'm very aware that people generally, not only on BUS, care for what sex someone have. And like many else I think it shouldn't matter, but fact is that it does. Because our language and way of communicating is quite a lot based on sex/gender. It's an artpiece to try to talk with someone who you got no idea at all if it's a she or he. To be able to add sex in the profile would make this part more simple.

Laura:
Your first two reasons you listed - I don't understand why they would be better discussed in a separate space.

I answer:

Well, more like this: If BUS would create a place to discuss such issues it would be to say"Hey, this is also something which is important when trying to understand self harm". (And I think maybe that's what you don't want to do right? Will get back to that.) I don't think one or two threads would be enough to discuss these issues. I think it should be something ongoing, all the time. Probably it would be easier though to get the female group to work. It's always a bit tricky to put men together in a group to discuss feelings with each other, but I think that a good moderator would be able to get it started and going.
Why it would be good to discuss with only other women or men is for the same reason why self harmers benefit from talking to each other, or why gaypeople or people from same country find it profitable to talk with only each other sometimes; Because they share something, way of living, a history, expectations, whatever, and even though they like to tell other people about this they sometimes find a free zone with guys who have lived through the same.

(Getting back to how gender/sex is connected to self harm.)
I believe that self harm is closely connected with understanding oneself, learn to know one's own language which include thoughts and feelings but also the body's language and others way of communicating. And how can we understand ourselves without understanding what it means to be a woman or man? Sex and gender is important for identification. How do my female relatives handle their feelings? Or why is there, for instance, so many girls who dream about getting raped? Is there something wrong with me if I enjoy those dreams or do I do the right thing when I punish myself for it afterwards? (Observe that this example serve as a symbol.) Of course a man can reply "No it's never good to punish oneself" which is important, but what I miss is a place where that shall be discussed. Putting some attention to it. BUS got power to do so because of it's size. What would BUS be saying with photos of wounds and no rules? Without the coping branch? BUS do inflict it's members and I think it would be of great value for us, the members, if some focus was put on gender/self harm.

Laura:
Am I right in thinking that the main reason for you is the one about wanting to discuss SA without men reading?

I:

No, you're not, but I see that many of you have read it like that. The reason why I mentioned it was because I understood it before like there has been quite a few discussions about place for sexual abused. And I can see that this would be a more natural place to discuss it than on the mainboard. I don't think there's many women who do not have anything at all to say about sexual abuse. It's really common and even if there wasn't any violence or actual force there's many many women who has felt abused or forced. Though I would stick to my idea even if there would be a prohibition against talking sexual abuse in these usergroups!

And I don't think people lying about their sex would be a big problem really. And if someone is a member of a usergroup only to mess things up it will soon be obvious and that person, no matter which sex, do not belong in the usergroup anyway.

I would be open for other ways than usergroups to discuss the issues. Though I personally would not be satisfied with a mixed place (open for both women and men). Neither would a mailinglist fill the same function.

This is a bigger discussion than I first thought. But I believe it's important.

From a sunny but quite cold suburb of Gothenburg...

/Dina

[Priceless]

i dont think its a good idea, i only think it will devide the board, and i think its a bad idea. for reasons mentionen in other post.

[guest11]

Yes, I've got to say I'm not convinced either. I think that it could cause problems - people will begin asking for sections of the board for their reason of self harm, and things could get very complicated. I can't agree with your viewpoint. Though I certainly understand.

[sug160489]

theres lots of mods and admin answering and since lots of people dont come up here i thought id voice my opinion

firstly i dont think it would really divide the board because if i correctly am reading this dina only wants usergroups not the whole board to be divided up which means that people still have the usual board with the same people but it gives people an oppurtunity to go to somewhere that there is only people that are female or only male and be able to talk openly about stuff. I know alot of the time i dont like talking to males about SI stuff and although u can put sumthing in the topic heading asking for girls only it doesnt give u the peace of mind of knowing that its in a forum for just girls.

I understand that there are alot of problems out there and this could be like opening pandoras box but i also think that it is an important concept to think about as it has actually been proven through research that the majority of people feel more comfortable talking to people that are the same sex as them rather than others and thats for all issues not just SA ones.

thats just my 2 cents worth take it or leave it its up to u

[Guest]

The more the board gets split and grouped and sectioned off, the less community we have. I'm sick to death of being defined by my sex, I like it very much that there's no hint of that here.

Can I have a reference to the research you mentioned, sug160489? I feel no more comfortable talking to females than to males. How genuine and understanding someone is has a lot more impact on how I feel about talking to them than whether their genitals are different from mine or not. I'd prefer to talk to a man I trusted about anything than to a woman I didnt know.

I guess I don't understand why gender seems so important to some people. I guess I'm at a loss to comprehend why single sex zones will do anything other than create further division. What next, we get usergroups based on sexual preference, ethnicity, religion?

Hmmm.

[sug160489]

umm ill have a look adn dig it out for u - it was stuff we did about 6 weeks ago in a SOR class at school so i should still have it some where it will just take me awhile to find

[Guest]

Thank you, that would be fab!

[silent_scream]

I feel more comfortable talking to men than women (I'm female) because women like to play mind games (no offense to any women ).

You're reasons make sense to make a new board. I can see how you would benefit from it. I can also see how it wouldn't work, or might make this place less of a community than it already is (just adding a few board I noticed that the community feeling went down...for me at least).

I was sexually abused and if I talk about it on main, and I don't want men to read it I'll tell them so. That doesn't mean that a man won't read it. But it doesn't really bother me either way. Bus isn't specifically for sexual abuse (i know you have said you get this point: but I am saying it again because I think you missed the real point: I think you saw argument rather than just a plain ol' fact) and the board does work for people who post, because people have kept posting and noone has (openly at least) left because of this issue.

I think that for it to happen a majority of people would have to make points in favour of it. I don't know that for sure, so don't quote me, but maybe you should make a poll on main asking what everyone thinks - if the majority of people want a change, then who knows?.

Kazz

[Dina]

silent_scream wrote:
I feel more comfortable talking to men than women (I'm female) because women like to play mind games (no offense to any women ).

Yeah, that's quite common to feel that way, but actually it prove my point: It do matter what sex someone belong to and there is expectations and prejudices about sex and gender, even "truths", and wouldn't it be really strange if this didn't at all affect our way of treating people and/or communicating with them?

It is common that women don't like other women and I don't think for a moment it's because of concurrens about men or about looks (which often end up being about men). I think it's something we learned early: Women are not trustable. Women are hysterical. Women are emotionable. Women are like cats... Men, on the other hand, are trustable. Men are calm and reasonable. Men are strong and able to handle their feelings. Men are any king of the jungle... (Actually men are not very often talked about as animals if it's not about sex. Women can be cats, hens, mice, foxes...)
Though, when women start talk to each other they often find out another truth. But it takes quite a lot of respect and trust to get there.

And silent_scream, no, as you said I've already said that it's not about SA. As I said before I would talk for these groups even if we were not allowed to talk about SA. Some women who has been sexual abused feel more comfortable talking with only women. Some feel the opposite like you say and may take even another step away from women, which is understandable. Though if some women feel more free talking about it with only women and they have that oppurtinty I think it's a good thing, even though that wasn't the purpose with creating the groups.

A research about the issue, like sug160489 talked about, would probably get different results depending on who you ask. For instance, many women from muslim countries wouldn't at all consider talking to a man about her feelings. This is also common in Zimbabwe, a very christian country and probably in other African countries.

About a poll. I laughed when I read that since I was thinking yesterday what I would wrote if someone suggested that. And, haha, here's my answer: Great idea! But let's change one thing. Let's pretend that the moderators and admins came up with the suggestion and that they are pro it. Me, the newbie, am against.

sug160489, nice that you agree and thank you for making my point clear; I do not want to divide the board in any way. Only add another oppurtunity with it.

And I know it's someone out there who too agree. It would be great if you made your voice heard!

/Dina

[silent_scream]

Well if you want I'll make a poll, and not mention any for or against issues. People here are quite opinionated, which is a good thing because it means it wouldn't matter if you or the queen of England herself made the poll: people would say what they think. It's important to remember the mods and admins were members not so long ago (apart from Deb) and they have the best interests for the board as a whole also .

[Proximity]

It's important to remember the mods and admins were members not so long ago

I still am a member

I just thought I'd add something that might seem irrelevent -
I actually attend an all women's college. I'm there right now. I go to classes every day with all women, sit in dining halls with all women, I walk around on campus with all women. (Well, primiarialy. There are always guests, faculty/staff, and the occasional male student who is taking a class here.)
I have a LOT of views about single-sex environments, and most of them are POSITIVE views .. (hell, I'm here, aren't I?)
I just don't think it's right for BUS.

prox.
[falling down in the green grass]

[Dina]

About poll.

I think it should be discussed for quite a while before a poll is made. It will be very difficult otherwise for people to understand what it's about. There is a lot of questionmarks and questions which need to be asked over and over. My suggestion may be a little controversiell for some too.
I can bring it up in Debating Society maybe to start with.

From a sunny but still so very cold west-coast of Sweden...

/Dina

[dreams]

Just a quick point some men have been sexually abused too and may actually be able to relate really well to emotions that people are going through. i.e. far better than me as i have never been sexually abused. I don't believe men are a different species needing separation.

Society may have different views on what it is appropriate for men and women to do, like for example "men can't cry", but that is absolute rubish and should not be encouraged on a board that is for emotional issues. Societies prejudices should not be passed on here. Men are allowed to cry and allowed to fell emotions just like women.

If you don't want replies from men then state that in your post and most males will stick to your request.

I have to say that i would not be at all confortable with the idea of separting gender and if it were to become an option i would also ask that we be allowed to decline to enter either group and stay as we are.

dreams