bus

right...i hope i'm doing right by posting this, its not so much an urge in an 'i'm about to go SI' kind of urge, but more rather a bad space that i'm in which means i'm urgey pretty much constantly (cept right now, when i've just woken up, because i can't bear physical sensation then, but anyway). - but anyway,if this is the wrong kind of thread for this board feel free to delete it or whatever.

a little background - i do this a lot, i think. out of the blue will start a couple of weeks when i am constantly urgey, desiring cutting/death/social isolation. since i 'officially' stopped cutting (or at least started trying to stop) in march there have been about 4 of these periods, 2 ending with an act of SI, 1 involving minor SI and 1 involving me walking around for a couple of days believing i didn't exist (i don't want to go back to that place). with 2 of these periods the SI has pulled me out of it - it generally doesn't work and disgusts me and for a few weeks convinces me that i don't want to do this. but then i get back the urges, often triggered by something minor. for example with this set i can't even remember what triggered them - reading through my place i think it has to do with a friend screwing with my head and confusion over my break-up. because of what this friend said to me i can't trust him and he's the only person i have left in london. furthermore, i'm not doing well over the entire needing people thing - if i could cut out the need i would even if it would make me something subhuman

what has brought me to the end of these patches in the past? i'm not sure. SI incidents, very good news, a nice aggressive gig with lots of moshing, achieving something. but the SI is the quickest and most sure fire way. typical.

so - those questions

- how will this situation or feeling change if i hurt myself?
two ways, not sure about which one. option 1 - the SI will work. I will, for a few blessed hours, stop feeling need, regain control over my emotions, be calm. option 2 - the SI won't work. feelings of need will be replaced with guilt and shame and this will help me isolate myself from my friends as i won't want them to find out. either way, the desire to SI which i think is taking over my head and setting up an amusement arcade in it will go away. the desire to SI is unbearable at times, when i shut my eyes i see it, my skin almost itches with it, sometimes it seems hard to breathe the desire is so much

- what will hurting myself bring to the situation? what will it take away from the situation?
it will bring me the knowledge that i can deal with things myself, that i'm not dependent on others. it will take away all those horrible indescribable and unbearable Feelings.

- how do i want to feel about this in the long run? is hurting myself likely to get me closer to or farther from feeling that way?
hmmm....in the long run i want to stop feeling need and dependence, but something tells me that i should really be wanting to accept these feelings but not let them control me. so this one is hard to answer.

- if hurting myself seems like my best option right now, how long will the relief it brings last? what will i do then?
it may not even bring relief. if it doesn't it will at least help me realise i don't want to SI again and get the image out of my head, stop my skin itching for it. if it does work, then

- what is something i could do now instead of hurting myself? how will it change the situation i'm in? how long will that change last, and what will i do then?
continue getting on with my life.this isn't an immediate urge, more a long running thing. i've survived it for about a week now, i don't know how much longer i will last. i can distract myself for a few hours, but it will come back, with particular inevitability at night. i can't distract myself when i'm trying to sleep.

- how will i feel tomorrow if i hurt myself? how will i feel tomorrow if i do the other thing i came up with?
guilt if i hurt myself. if i do the other stuff i will almost certainly feel the same as i do now and will do so indefinitely.

- what do i really want to do right now? how can i best honor the self-protective instinct that has me wanting to self-injure right now?
right now i have to go out and look after children. so i will. i don't know how i can best honour the instinct that is making me want to self injure because i'm not sure that its an instinct i should be honouring. if i was to honour it then i would go hide under my bed or live in a shack on some mountainside and not be here asking for help. asking for help goes against the instinct.

- how will this situation or feeling change if i hurt myself?
two ways, not sure about which one. option 1 - the SI will work. I will, for a few blessed hours, stop feeling need, regain control over my emotions, be calm. option 2 - the SI won't work. feelings of need will be replaced with guilt and shame and this will help me isolate myself from my friends as i won't want them to find out

you talk about isolation - what's making you feel the need to be on your own?

- what will hurting myself bring to the situation? what will it take away from the situation?
it will bring me the knowledge that i can deal with things myself, that i'm not dependent on others. it will take away all those horrible indescribable and unbearable Feelings.

can you think of any times in the past where you have dealt with things yourself without using si?

- how do i want to feel about this in the long run? is hurting myself likely to get me closer to or farther from feeling that way?
hmmm....in the long run i want to stop feeling need and dependence, but something tells me that i should really be wanting to accept these feelings but not let them control me. so this one is hard to answer.

could you explain further about what you feel need and dependence means to you?

- if hurting myself seems like my best option right now, how long will the relief it brings last? what will i do then?
it may not even bring relief. if it doesn't it will at least help me realise i don't want to SI again and get the image out of my head, stop my skin itching for it

sometimes when my skin feels like it's itching etc, an ice cube can help - especially for when you don't feel real which i think is what you were referring to earlier on.

- what is something i could do now instead of hurting myself? how will it change the situation i'm in? how long will that change last, and what will i do then?
continue getting on with my life.this isn't an immediate urge, more a long running thing. i've survived it for about a week now, i don't know how much longer i will last. i can distract myself for a few hours, but it will come back, with particular inevitability at night. i can't distract myself when i'm trying to sleep.

What kind of distracting things do you want to do?

asking for help goes against the instinct.

asking for help is a way to get out of a situation in one piece, so it's ok.

tenar wrote: what will hurting myself bring to the situation? what will it take away from the situation?
it will bring me the knowledge that i can deal with things myself, that i'm not dependent on others. it will take away all those horrible indescribable and unbearable Feelings.

i hate feelings...realistically, though, they are not as indescribable as the seem...there is a page in Sourcebook, i think, which i am trying to find as we speak...ahh, there are two of them...

http://www.busmail.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6791

and

http://www.busmail.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6769

those are both regarding being unable to identify Feelings...i know it helps me a whole lot to have some sort of a reference, lest i fall into the 'fine/not fine' trap...because we all know there are more than two emotions in the world

just a thought if youve got a little time to do some reading...i hope you can fight through your urges, i do the same thing sometimes...*gentle hugs*

fyllie

fyllie: i've tried playing with those threads in the past, somehow it doesn't work. none of the words seem to get close to what i experience. in a way i guess its self-aggrandisement because in a way i feel that no single word can describe it. even when i have a set of words that i know apply (ie. anger, loneliness, overwhelmed) i can't relate that gut feeling i have to those concepts. there's a naming gap i just can't seem to breach.


limestone:

i need to be on my own because i have double standards. its ok for everyone else to ask for help and have communities and friends and support networks, but it is weakness unless i can do everything on my own.

i have dealt with things without using si...doing some really hard training but successful training so i feel exhausted, endorphin high and that i've achieved something. problem is if i go train now and i really kill myself over it i won't be able to get a personal best because my current lack of gymn access means i'm losing strength which makes me miserable. i can't bear training without doing at least as well as i've done before. that lasts only a few hours though, maybe a day. other ways i've dealt is just going to bed and putting it off for a few more hours, but then it comes back again. i think i see it ocming back as inevitable , whcih is the problem.

need and dependence. dirty dirty words. they mean weakness, and i hate more than anything to be considered weak. they mean failure, failure to live up to my own standards. they mean vulnerability - always jumping but never knowing if someone will catch me.

ice cubes...hehe, mine has to be the only family in the country that refuses to use icecubes. i have no idea why. frozen peas might work though, i'll dig some out.

distracting things...making cd's and cases, tidying my room (ok, need more than want that one), eating (but i can't, i'm a teensy bit over my maximum so i'm eating less than usual so i get back to my usual weight), reading jane austen books, doing crosswords (i hate not commuting as i don't get any newspapers so no crosswords, damn holidays)

help is a way to get out of a situation in one piece, it may be ok for everyone else, but for me its weakness.

xxx

Okay, some more questions...

What makes you so resistant to help? Was it a specific event in your life?
What's the difference between the feeling (I'm weak if I ask for help) v. the rational thoughts (it's a double standard)?
Why are you different?
Do you think you deserve help?
Why is help failure? What else is failure to you?

just thoughts...

JoAnna

hi

tenar wrote:limestone:

i need to be on my own because i have double standards. its ok for everyone else to ask for help and have communities and friends and support networks, but it is weakness unless i can do everything on my own.

What will happen if you can't do everything on your own? Have there been times when you have allowed others to help you?

i have dealt with things without using si...doing some really hard training but successful training so i feel exhausted, endorphin high and that i've achieved something.

exercise sounds good - does gentle exercise help in the same way with urges or do you find it has to be very intense workouts to help?

tenar wrote:.. other ways i've dealt is just going to bed and putting it off for a few more hours, but then it comes back again. i think i see it ocming back as inevitable , whcih is the problem.

you know underneath the urge to si, is that what comes back even after sleep? If the urge does come back after sleeping and you could talk to it, what would you like to say?

tenar wrote:need and dependence. dirty dirty words. they mean weakness, and i hate more than anything to be considered weak. they mean failure, failure to live up to my own standards. they mean vulnerability - always jumping but never knowing if someone will catch me.

How can you ensure that you will catch yourself without hurting yourself in the process?

You mention standards, could you explain further about what kind of things you feel you should live by.

What do you see happening if your vulnerable and why do you hate others to consider yourself as weak?

The essence I get from your quote is failure - have there been times when you've felt you've failed?

tenar wrote:ice cubes...hehe, mine has to be the only family in the country that refuses to use icecubes. i have no idea why. frozen peas might work though, i'll dig some out.

ditto. my dad helpfully defrosted our ice cube tray at the weekend to make room for bread. we too have frozen peas

distracting things...making cd's and cases, tidying my room (ok, need more than want that one), eating (but i can't, i'm a teensy bit over my maximum so i'm eating less than usual so i get back to my usual weight), reading jane austen books, doing crosswords (i hate not commuting as i don't get any newspapers so no crosswords, damn holidays)

help is a way to get out of a situation in one piece, it may be ok for everyone else, but for me its weakness.

xxx

Are there any crosswords online? do you have a Jane Austen book you could start?

btw, while i am desperate not to want help it is a conflicting thing - half of me is begging for it (the half posting here) and half of me is hating the other half for asking - and as each side gets worse the other responds in a lovely vicious cycle way.

also, i'm currently doing the bad thing of running through everytime i thought i acted badly towards someone for the last few years and blaming myself for them. ugh. i'm a beast, a horrible priggish beast.

JoAnna: (i've numbered these myself for convenience)

1 - What makes you so resistant to help? Was it a specific event in your life?
2 - What's the difference between the feeling (I'm weak if I ask for help) v. the rational thoughts (it's a double standard)?
3 - Why are you different?
4 - Do you think you deserve help?
5 - Why is help failure? What else is failure to you?

1 - can think of no specific incident of resistance to help. my personal theory involves having to deal with minor stuff myself when i was an early teen (because my sister was going through hell, and i think SIing, and my mum was very involved with her - when she was saying goodnight to us i would wait up for her to come into my room to say goodnight and sometimes she would be very late and so i would go look for her and she would tell me to go away because she was spending time with my sister). also at the same time reading atlas shrugged by ayn rand and developing for myself a rather bizarre philosophy of self help, needing others being weakness etc

2 - the difference between the feeling and thought - erm, one is a gut reaction that causes me to hate the bit of me that is aking for help. the rational thought that i have double standards is just a minor backthought that makes me get rather sarcastic to myself

3 - why am i different? no effing idea. just am. gut reaction to neediness, hate the bloody thing. also, i find excessive weakness in some others distasteful - i hate it when my mum cries and asks for me to hug her, i can't do that. also, i have strong instinct that asking for help is selfish - also that i cannot be selfish but others can. i wasn't abused, i had a good home life, i have nothing to complain about.

4 - do i deserve help? no. hell, i wrote that without thinking. problem is that partly i don't think i deserve help simply because i'm asking for it. another part of me thinks i don't deserve help but bloody hell i need it giveitgiveitgiveit. the bit that recognises i'm being irrational thinks i don't deserve help because i'm caught in a vicious cycle of my own creation and should therefore be perfectly able to get out of it.

5 - help is failure because it breaks my code of independent life. it involves others in what is ultimately a pontless problem of my own creation. what else is failure - all the usual chestnuts - bad grades, bad training results. also falling short of any expectation of myself.



Limestone:

What will happen if you can't do everything on your own? Have there been times when you have allowed others to help you?

i can't do anything on my own. thereason i'm still here is because for every time i tell myself not to reach out i also do reach out and get help. but its horrible and distasteful and pontless. ok, well, i do reach out and i don't like it. i hate directly asking for help though, i rarely do that.mainly because i don't know what i want others to do. maybe tell me it will be alright but i never believe them. mostly just to wave a magic wand and make it all go away.

exercise sounds good - does gentle exercise help in the same way with urges or do you find it has to be very intense workouts to help?

some non intense exercise helps, like rollerblading. problem is its wet right now which rules it out, and its often dark when i get urgey/have time so i can't go out on the roads. other than that i'm a bit stuck because i have to do the intense training every day to maintain my fitness for rowing, i also spend the entire day pushing buggies etc around as i am currently working as a nanny - this leaves me rather stuck because i don't have time/energy/daylight to go for a rollerblade.

you know underneath the urge to si, is that what comes back even after sleep? If the urge does come back after sleeping and you could talk to it, what would you like to say?

its always there right now, but i don't know what it is. sometimes it makes me want to si, sometimes it makes me want to stand in themiddle of theroad and wait, sometimes it makes me wnat to curl up in a ball and hide, sometimes it makes me dance madly to radiohead.

How can you ensure that you will catch yourself without hurting yourself in the process?

i don't think i can catch myself. mainly because i don't know what i want, i don't know how to catch myself. i don't know what i'm falling from.

You mention standards, could you explain further about what kind of things you feel you should live by.

indepedence, self help, independence, being a strong person, consistency, not being selfish. and yeah, i break all of them.

What do you see happening if your vulnerable and why do you hate others to consider yourself as weak?

i don't want others to see the elements of me (my weakness) that disgust me. the same way i cover up embarassing bits of my body with clothes. if others see me as vulnerable i see myself being rejected. if i am vulnerable i think i will expose myself but not be helped and just sit there exposed and hurting and not getting anywhere, when i 'should' be able to sort my own problems out. not sorting out my own problems is selfishness and people won't like me.

The essence I get from your quote is failure - have there been times when you've felt you've failed?

most of the time since 15th november 2003 and i cried for the first time in years. i first SIed on the 18th. since then the 'strong, independent' tenar collapsed and i became a weedy,needy ball of s***. i seem to have failed not onlymy standards but also my images - my mother keeps saying 'you are such a strong person, i don't understand why you got so upset when you dumped your boyfriend' (the incident that kicked this little joy off).

ditto. my dad helpfully defrosted our ice cube tray at the weekend to make room for bread. we too have frozen peas

ooo, i'm not the only one.

Are there any crosswords online? do you have a Jane Austen book you could start?

am in the middle of both persuasion and pride and prejudice. but P&P is somewhere in cornwall on account of me leaving it in the car and so i'll stick to persuasion. will look for online crosswords.

thanks all who've replied so far. this is interesting. feel free to yell when the circles i have talked myself into go tighter.

xxxxxx

tenar wrote:Limestone:

What will happen if you can't do everything on your own? Have there been times when you have allowed others to help you?

i can't do anything on my own. thereason i'm still here is because for every time i tell myself not to reach out i also do reach out and get help. but its horrible and distasteful and pontless. ok, well, i do reach out and i don't like it. i hate directly asking for help though, i rarely do that.mainly because i don't know what i want others to do. maybe tell me it will be alright but i never believe them. mostly just to wave a magic wand and make it all go away.

If you could sit and talk to someone who you see can help you, what would you realistically want to ask them to do?

tenar wrote:i also spend the entire day pushing buggies etc around as i am currently working as a nanny - this leaves me rather stuck because i don't have time/energy/daylight to go for a rollerblade.

I read in a magazine once how this mum used to push the buggy whilst rollerblading alongside the seafront. Could you do something similar perhaps?

tenar wrote:

You mention standards, could you explain further about what kind of things you feel you should live by.

indepedence, self help, independence, being a strong person, consistency, not being selfish. and yeah, i break all of them.

Independence I can see is very important to you. Are there ways you can get independence without making your life harder? Being able to recognize that you do have the right to ask for help and to make your own decisions is a tricky balance. Are there people or situations or thoughts that make striking this balance more difficult at this moment in time?

tenar wrote:if i am vulnerable i think i will expose myself but not be helped and just sit there exposed and hurting and not getting anywhere, when i 'should' be able to sort my own problems out. not sorting out my own problems is selfishness and people won't like me.

I can see that to ask for help is a big risk. Are there things you can put in place to avoid being exposed and hurting and not getting anywhere before you ask for help? Not being able to sort out problems is not always a reflection on you. What do you fear people will do once they see that you need help and/or are not sorting out your own problems?

i'm actually doing quite well at the moment, my mood seemed to lift after i wrote the last set out. i'll answer the questions though, because this has been interesting and helpful.


limestone:
i'm not sure what i want someone who could help me to do. i was thinking about this last night - partly its a desire just to be held and comforted, but also for them to ask me that one magic question that will make me see what the hell is wrong with me, or maybe they will be able to say what is wrong and i will realise it and get through it. and if they can't do that then being held and told i'd be alright (and believe them - whenever people tell me this i don't believe them) and then distracted and forced back into sense with a joke would be good.

(buggy + rollerskates) x london pavements = broken leg + lost job. probably. i skate on the roads as the pavements are lethal. i don't feel right taking a child on the road, even if its a very quiet residential one. besides, for me the skating is about release which is from speed, going down hills fast - again i couldn't do that to a kid. but, i will try to skate when i'm feeling bad and i'm on my own, or try to find a few other things to do to make me feel better - perhaps doing my training as swimming if i have time.

there are people and situations that make independence difficult. and its only really emotional independence - i can see the logic of scabbing off my parents till i leave university, but emotional independence is important. i tend to think about situations which make me lose that are those people who i have a strong attachment to - my ex boyfriend (we were best friends, then went out, then broke up) who i've always been in love with but in various different ways (we're more intense than friends, not as intense as lovers - its complex), a few other friends. my mother also tends to interfere with my emotional independence not because i'm dependent on her but because she makes me want to seek reassurance from others. some aspects of my life are helping me to find the balance - this may be strange but i've just started asserting my right to cycle on the roads (my mother has always stopped me on safety grounds) and having that independent form of transport (aside from skating places which can take a while and i can't do in the wet) makes me feel a lot freer. other situations that make me lose independence? i'm not sure, its mainly people. anything that makes me feel upset removes independence by making me needy, anything that makes me want to seek assurance.

i think that not being ablet o sort out my problems is a reflection on myself - my problems are self created and often based on false ideas of myself that i have adhered to - those who help me can see that and i can see that. i worry they will eventually grow tired of hearing the same thing over and over again.

how could i avoid being hurt? by only going to those i trust, but still i fear that because there are only a few of them they will grow tired of me. i already talk to my counsellor, but she's away at the moment. i don't know what else i could do, i want to feel i'm justified in asking for help, or have slightly less entrenched problems. i'm afriad people who see i need help won't like me or will simply ignore me as a dull problem filled bore.

xx