befire

[okie]

"befire", gosh I love my typos (even though my typing teacher in high school took points off for such things. I think a pysch teacher would award extra points). I was goinig to post about "all the while", you know, there's before, there's after, and then there's all the rest of the time when this behavior AND EVERY OTHER BEHAVIOR RELATED TO WHAT'S BEHIND IT are a part of your ongoing existence.

What that means is that I've been struggling ALL DAY. It's not the urge-y kind of struggle but the inevitable one, the one that says, "When I get time to myself, I'm going to take care of my needs." And stupidly, the needs are aimed at self injury, not self healing.

I've wanted to call my T all day and didn't. I should have. It's such a roller coaster. Up = my brother went to (ie. was taken to) the neurologist to find out what's wrong. Down = doctors in New Orleans these days are scarce and stretched or stressed or committing suicide along with the rest of the survivors. Up = they finally let my brother in. Up = the doctor is great. Up (yeah, this is the big hump in the roller coaster; we're going up, up, up) = tests are scheduled, like, tomorrow. Down = it could be ? and ? and ?. Anyhow, the point is there is so much stress and I'm not dealing well. It doesn't help that, rather than support at home, I get grief. Of course nothing is %100 percent true. So yes, there is support, but it's so superficial. IDK what I'm saying. I just wish I had someone in my life, besides my T, who is on my side. I suppose that even means me. I mean, I'm apparently not even on my own side.

What triggered this urge to cut? Invalidation. I shared what I think is a really viable idea for a dance (choreography) but with the wrong people -- my family. I came up with it while walking to work. It's inspiring to me. I think I should try to invite my family (most especially my H) into my inner life. Wrong. Later, after all damage done, my daughter says she thinks it's cool. Maybe she's just humoring me. But at least she realizes it's important to me. My H can only say that my end of the conversation took a disproportionate amount of time. It makes me want to get a stopwatch and time him and time me and let him see how much of his crap I listen to.

I guess the other problem here is that I don't have (or maybe I do - need to think about it) an appropriate person to share it with. IDK, just bitching... because I can.

The big thing here is that while I put all kinds of blame on others' shortcomings, even if I were to exit my marriage, I would still be a mess. I need to find a way to sort myself out BY MYSELF. Elsewise, I simpl repeat the pattern. Does that make any sense?

[beachgirl]

Hi Okie - It makes complete sense to me. Because I have been struggling with many of the same issues. Different in the details, but much the same basic problems. I don't have any answers for you but I will sit with you. And, tell you that I admire you because you have been stronger with your urges than I managed to be.

And, it's good to see you still around a bit, even if it's because things are hard. I've missed you.

Susie

[okie]

Thank you, Susie. And don't believe that I am managing better than you. Cutting = not so bad. Wine = overdone.

It's just so hard and somehow, even though I know my T is there for me, I will not let it be so. I do know that one thing that is happening is that, as I change it necessarily is throwing my husband into equal but opposite reaction. Since we are not in counseling together anymore, he has no support (yes, his choice). Something my T and I were talking about yesterday brought her to say something about me "enabling" my H. I stopped her and said, "No, I want to put it in terms of ME. I am not enabling him; I am disabling me." It made it so clear to me. Yet (OK, that was only yesterday that I had this revelation) I don't seem able to act on that knowledge.

Again, thank you for being here. I just can't go back to ARC at this time, but I don't know where else to turn. So, I came here, to "Before and After" as a bit of a more private place. I don't know that I am up to the scrutinizing questions about each urge I have, but I am serious about trying to get to the bottom of this cycle (and yes, I intentionally referred to a cycle that has a bottom -- an impossibility; but it's like the catch 22 penomenon; it is cyclical but surely there is an ideal that would let me escape).

Again, thanks.

Odette

[beachgirl]

I do know that one thing that is happening is that, as I change it necessarily is throwing my husband into equal but opposite reaction.

That is my fear, Okie. I can't get past the idea that if I truly work on me and my own desires, that it will be akin to dropping a nuclear bomb into the middle of my family. I am not sure my husband could accept some fundamental changes in me and I am not willing to risk my marriage. So, yesterday in therapy, I told my t that I am choosing to not work on this issue (putting my own needs first) because I am not brave enough to take those risks and just talking about it makes me too sad.

I don't want to hijack your thread here, so I won't spend more time talking about my own issues. But I do recognize what a hard place it is to be. By the way, I am reading a book called "The Breaking Point: How Female Midlife Crisis is Transforming Today's Women" by Sue Shellenbarger and it is really good. Don't let the title put you off. I am not fond of the phrase "midlife crisis" because it sounds like such a joke, but the book is more about the transition and transformation that many women go through during the middle of their lives.

"Place" is another fairly private place. I have spent some recent time anguishing about this issue in my thread there. As for the wine vs. cutting, I guess that neither one is the healthiest coping method (and I do occasionally use wine and/or benzos instead) but at least they work and keep us from even more drastic measures. But, do take care of yourself. And, I would truly love to hear about the dance you thought of.

Susie

[okie]

Hi Odette

Nice to see you here btw

Thanks.

I think you have to just go back to a very basic level here to find out how to solve it. You don't like that your family invalidates you so you need to share that with them. You need to say to them, "I listen to what you have to say and I try to encourage you, I dislike it when you don't give me the same respect back. I would like it if you took time to listen to what I have to say and encourage me and help me. If you don't listen to me and make time for me then I will do X (like I will stop washing for you or cooking for you, make it something that really impacts them). Clearly they are taking advantage of you and you are letting them do that.

That makes a lot of sense. I have survived by stifling my needs or at least stifling my voice about my needs. I think at times when I have tried to express myself, it's been met with varrying success. Which doesn't mean I shouldn't try. It's just scary sometimes because of the reactions I can get, especially from my H. You know, silent treatment, etc.

As for your marriage Odette, I think you just have to look at what you really want. You are unhappy and you haven't managed to solve that. i do agree that if you exited you would still be a mess but would you then have the impotus and reasons to move on because you are no longer being held back by your husband? There is a degree of catch 22 there but I think you are exaggerating it because you are afraid and that is fine but you need to look objectively at what you need from your life and how to achieve that.

I seem to be horribly dependent on my marriage, if not my H specifically. There is good there. And there are plenty worse men out there. It's just that I have a hard time imagining what I would do without it. IDK, I think I want to solve these problems within my marriage if it's possible. It may not be though. Sorry, I'm not thinking too clearly just now. But thanks for the input.

Odette

[okie]

That is my fear, Okie. I can't get past the idea that if I truly work on me and my own desires, that it will be akin to dropping a nuclear bomb into the middle of my family. I am not sure my husband could accept some fundamental changes in me and I am not willing to risk my marriage.

I know. I am speaking up more, and there is some progress. But I know it could be better if my H were in therapy and if we were both in counseling together. I guess I'm a chicken in that, in many ways, my family life is good and I am too comfortable to give that up. Awful, isn't it?

I don't want to hijack your thread here, so I won't spend more time talking about my own issues.

There's no worry there. Sharing your experience, perspective and issues helps me understand my own.

I have a backlog of books right now (including one on rational recovery -- an alternative to AA), but will check out the one you mention in the future.

And, I would truly love to hear about the dance you thought of.

I think I'll try it on one of the dance professors here before I say anything in "public". I'm pretty shy about putting myself out there (borne of yucky experience). But thank you all the same.

Odette

[beachgirl]

Maybe I am not understand this, but my partner encourages me to meet my own needs. If fundamental changes need to be made to the dynamic of our relationship to make it happier then she is willing to work with me. She hates our relationship being combative and argumentative as much as I do so we just talk and change things.

I don't think I can understand why, for both of you, that making positive changes to yourself is such a problem for your families. Don't they want you to be happy? Can't they see that if you make positive changes for yourself that means that they will benefit?

I just don't see a relationship where positive change is a bad thing as being healthy. I don't see that you should compramise yourselves as people because your familes are being selfish. That is an indication they need to change too.

Maybe I am throwing out something that you don't want to hear but if they don't want you to make positive changes and be happier then they don't love you as much as they profess.

Hugs
Mab

Hi Mab - Since Okie has said it's okay to discuss these issues in more depth here, I'll give you my take on it.

You are right in what you say, of course. And, I am very happy for you to have found a partner who does encourage positive change in you. I don't want to give the impression that my husband actively discourages my inner growth because he doesn't. However discarding old roles, personas, values, etc. and trying on new ones is very unsettling to those who are used to the old ways. As Okie said, if she (or I) were to change so dramatically, that would require change on the part of our husbands. And, if they feel that life is fine, they will probably resist these changes.

I don't see it as a matter of amount of love, but more the product of relationships built and cemented over many years. And, it is very hard to contemplate walking away from a 20 year marriage when I do still love my husband and know that I have a nice life.

I am in a bit of a hurry right now, but the last few posts in my place (called My Beach Cottage) talk a lot about my struggles with this issue. I don't know how to put links in my posts or my sig, but if you want to, I invite you to read there. You too, of course, Okie. We can continue this discussion here or there or both!

Hugs to both of you. And, profound thanks for discussing this issue with me. I feel like I have been given a gift.

Susie

[okie]

Maybe I am not understand this, but my partner encourages me to meet my own needs. If fundamental changes need to be made to the dynamic of our relationship to make it happier then she is willing to work with me. She hates our relationship being combative and argumentative as much as I do so we just talk and change things.

I don't think I can understand why, for both of you, that making positive changes to yourself is such a problem for your families. Don't they want you to be happy? Can't they see that if you make positive changes for yourself that means that they will benefit?

I just don't see a relationship where positive change is a bad thing as being healthy. I don't see that you should compramise yourselves as people because your familes are being selfish. That is an indication they need to change too.

Maybe I am throwing out something that you don't want to hear but if they don't want you to make positive changes and be happier then they don't love you as much as they profess.

Hugs
Mab

Well, it makes so much sense when you put it like that. And there's lots to think about in what you say. For now I can only say that, for example, going to therapy, trying to look honestly at yourself, effecting change, etc. are all hard and scary things. My H is, like, hyper manic all the time so that, IMO, he never has to stop and think about himself. He doesn't really engage in personal talk. When we were in counseling, it was very hard for him to express his feelings. He always talked about things, events, what was good and not what was wrong.

There are so many things I find difficult about living with him. But here on BUS, I focus on the problems, the bad stuff. He does have many good qualities. It's just been so hard these last, hmmm, I was about to type "couple of years", but gee, maybe I should say these last 25 years. Like the first year was good, and then I went underground. It's a hard place to crawl out of. Sorry I'm disappointing.

Odette

[okie]

Hi Susie. Looks like I was writing when you posted. Catch you later.

It is interesting to me that we both seem to have similar reasoning and concerns and that it is so foreign to you, Mab. No excuses here, but I expect me staying in this marriage for so long is a combination of finding someone who took care of me (when that had not been the case as a child), inexperience and jumping right in when I was pretty young, and wanting to please others and "be good" and be liked. None of those are things I particulary like owning up to -- so trite, they are. But I'm working on it now. It's just dang hard.

I'm at work, so I should get back to it now. Thank you both for your thoughtful input.

Odette

[okie]

Mab,

You've asked interesting questions and brought up important issues that have had me thinking all day -- about the last 25 years and about security. I am really squeezed for time today and won't be able to write what I'm thinking. I just didn't want you to think I was ignoring you or upset. I should be able to get back on tomorrow.

And thanks for all the input. It is really helpful.

Odette

[okie]

Well, I've found a bit of time to work on this, though I can't be sure it's the best bit of time because I've had some wine by now. But I shall try.

About the past 25 years. Well, you know while I was living those years, it's not like I was thinking, my H is the problem here, but I'll stick it out because I have a meal every night that I want one. It was more that he seemed so together, so functional, so successful that perhaps I could learn to be like that. I thought all of the problems lay within me (and believe me, I have my share). It wasn't until I got into therapy three or four years ago that I came, slowly to realize that his successes were not personal ones. So that is where, now, at this particular point in time, I was looking back and saying, if I were the person then that I am now, those years were not good. But while I was going through it, I thought, in a warped way, that I was trying to fit in, to be normal, to improve myself, etc. And in fact, some of that did happen. I got quite an education. But I didn't have a healthy enough background to know which parts to embrace, which to question, and which to reject.

So, now that I have objective help in sorting out the problems in my life, I find that my H is not "all that".

As to the question about having a nice house/life/superficial existence by sacrificing your soul, well, it's not so clear cut in the process. As I explained above, I was living as authentic a life as I knew. In that, I had a say in how our life, as a couple, proceeded. My H respected my knowledge in the areas where I did have a clue: in entertaining (which does equal sociability, which we humans, as social animals value and enjoy), in building a home environment, in gardening, in raising our children, in teaching, etc. So, these years that I have spent contributing to this, our family unit don't mean nothing. I have invested a lot of who I am into what we are. What's hard is that now that I am beginning to understand the pathology in both of us, where do you draw the line? We are not on the same timetables. Teaching math will tell you that. Does it matter that "Student X" learned how to factor binomials in November, while "Student Y" didn't learn that until February the next year? Point is, they both mastered it, but I had to assign a grade at a certain point in time. (Confession: I never taught math at that level. I just used that example because it sounded good. Language arts was my area, though I did teach fifth grade math. It's just that math is such a clear indication of the stupdity of grading.).

Arrrrrrg!!! so, I lost my point. I did say I might blame something on the wine. And wow, Paula has quit smoking and drinking. Wow, impressive. Actually, it's not "impressive". It's simply growth. Like what happened when I started therapy and without having it as a stated goal, I dropped 60 pounds. We get healthier emotionally and there are consequences. How very cool. Yow, off topic. OK, I think I'll stop here. I do need to get on with my work.

Odette

[beachgirl]

Hi - I haven't disappeared from this discussion. This weekend has just been very busy and I haven't had time to read and reply properly! But, it is an interesting and helpful conversation and I'll be back. (said in my best Terminator impression.)

Susie