What counts as sexual abuse? How to talk about it? *sex**SA*

Neats · Post by **Neats** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:02 am

Hiya...

*sex/SA spoiler*

Okies, I'm very nervous here. I've been thinking a lot about what is or is not sexual abuse. Some of it is obvious — I know that what happened when I was 12 was rape. But more recent events in my life aren't so clear cut as that was.

My ex-boyfriend and I are very close. We've stayed friends since we broke up and I know he cares about me even if he doesn't love me the way I love him. He's not a bad guy. The problem is about some things that happened when we were dating. He wanted to have sex, but I wasn't ready both because of religious beliefs and because of the SA in my past. He said he was okay with that, and he always stopped when I told him to. But he did put pressure on me — no ultimatums or "if you really love me" stuff, but going a little bit further than I had previously said I was comfortable with. He always apologized after I told him to stop, but he kept doing it.

Then one day things went too far, and he did something that I definitely didn't want. My confusion is because I didn't tell him "no" on that particular occasion, but I had told him several times in the past (including the day before) that I wasn't ready for it. So I don't know if that counts as abuse or not.

One time he told me that his previous girlfriend had "let him do it, even though she didn't want to." That really upset me. It seemed to me that if he knew she didn't want him to have sex with her, then he shouldn't have done it. And it seems like that's the same thing that happened with me, but I can't get angry with him about behaving that way with me even though I'm upset that he did with her.

I want to talk to him about this. I don't think he realizes he's done anything wrong — or at least insensitive. I love him very much and I don't want to hurt his feelings, but I think I need to talk to him about it for both our sakes. Even if I never get to be with him again, I don't want him to do this to another girl either. I'm certain that I can talk to him about this, that he'll listen to what I have to say, but I don't know how to approach the subject.

So my two questions are:

1) Does what happened count as sexual abuse?

2) How should I talk to him about it?

Thank you very much for listening, and for any support or input you can provide.

Arcadia · Post by **Arcadia** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:01 pm

I am not sure if it was definitely sexual abuse but it was definitely abuse. he abused your trust and attempted to manipulate you. that's wrong.

PoisonIvy · Post by **PoisonIvy** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:27 pm

It does count as sexual abuse. You don't have to say "no" for it to count. Anything in which you do not want counts, even if it is not stated at the time that it occurs, even if it's not stated previously. If you don't want it, then it doens't count. The thing is, if you give consent, then it is NOT considered sexual assualt. In your above statement you never actually stated that you didn't say yes, so I'm going to assume that you didn't. The fact that he knew you were uncomfortable with things and continued to push them really bothers me. If he cared for your feelings he would not have done that, and for this reason I am glad that his is your exboyfriend. Sexual assualt is an act of violence which uses sex as a weapon. It is motivated by aggression and by the desire to exert power and humiliate.

I pressed charges against the man that sexually assualted me, so I know a lot on the topic. I want to tell you, that it's not your fault, in anyway. I don't care if you were walking around wearing only a bra in front of him, it still gives him no reason to treat you like that. And the fact that it was implied that it wasen't the first time (the ex-girlfriend) is horrid!

I read that you two are still very close. I can see that you care about him, but maybe you should think about starting to create some distance between the two of you. Think about the one statement that you wrote . . . "he's not a bad guy" why did you chose those words? Is it because to write that he's a good guy would be a lie? I don't know him, so I can't make any assumptions really, but I do think that you should talk to him. Tell him how he made you feel, tell him that hes a creep and then get him out of you're life. You are better then that.

I don't know if what I wrote seems harsh . . . I'm kinda in one of my moods, I don't mean it to sounds rude, so if it does I apoligise. I'm kinda just really passionate about the subject and it horrifies me to think that people think its ok.

*Neats, you've obviously been through a lot, and I want you to know that if you need to talk, I am here, you can PM me anytime you want, or even e-mail me. Just know that you're not allone, and again, that you did nothing wrong. I know what you're going through, and I'm here.

*hugs*
Megs

Space_Man · Post by **Space_Man** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:03 pm

Neats wrote:1) Does what happened count as sexual abuse?

I am troubled by the use of the term “abuse” (to me, that’s always something I associate with an adult-to-child type of thing), but… Yes—and from a guy—what he did to you was NOT O.K., and was entirely inappropriate. You had set the parameters with him before-hand, and he violated the ground rules...as well as your trust. The stuff about his other girlfriend submitting to him was just horse pucky.

Neats wrote:2) How should I talk to him about it?

This is a tougher one. I think we’re all in agreement that what he did was wrong and that he shouldn’t have done it in the first place…but how do you feel about it now? It sounds like you are still fairly close to him, and so I think that might influence how you go about addressing your concerns with him now...

Neats · Post by **Neats** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:31 am

Hiya...thanks for your responses.

As I'm sitting here trying to think of what to write in this reply, my ex-boyfriend is on AIM. We're talking about the usual topics of conversation: school, our respective hobbies, normal mundane stuff. And I keep mulling over all this while he tells me about the DnD campaign he's going to run and how much he likes his Japanese class, and I think about the conversation we had last night. I was really hurting, and hating myself, and he spent two hours on the phone with me trying to convince me that I'm worth loving. While I talk to him now, I keep thinking of how he tries to support me whenever I'm hurting and how he never meant to be the one who hurt me.

I believe that. He didn't do this to hurt me. But he doesn't realize how much he did hurt me. I'm not sure if he's even aware that he did anything wrong...

I'm seeing him on Friday. Whether it hurts his feelings or not, it's time for a wake-up call. Right now, I'm not sure if his wake-up call should be in the form of a gentle verbal slap, a mighty two-by-four of doom, or somewhere in between.

moreoutoflife · Post by **moreoutoflife** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:41 pm

Hi Neats,

I can certainly relate to what you are going through, cause I've dated some pretty pushy guys too and I know how you feel, in terms of not wanting to lose them, but at the same time you want to voice your feelings. And rightly so, he did know that you were uncomfortable with going further, since I'm sure you didn't just only bring it up once to him!

I was too, a long time ago now, in a relationship where I felt I had to do things to please my 'man', and he was certainly sweet and loving, and all that, I even met his parents, and we were going to get married! (Imagine that?) Luckily for me, I opened my eyes and took some time off from our relationship (whoa, I tell you, I discovered he was sleeping with some other chick and tried to convince me that we were on a 'break'?).

I, of course, threw the ring in his face and told him to get stuffed (I'm being polite here, I used far worse words than that)....

The moral of my story is that you should NEVER EVER EVER have to do what you do not want to do, and whether you say things out loud or keep your mouth shut for the rest of your life does not justify for anyone to push you in a different direction.

Believe me, no matter what this guy says or does to make you feel good about yourself is only one-sided (I really don't think if he was truly a nice guy, you would be in this predicament).

There are guys out there that will give you respect and support and true unconditional love (which I have found after a long long search). That person will never impose themselves on you in any way and will give you freedom to be yourself and do absolutely whatever it is that YOU want to do!

All the best - take care,

Shayla

Space_Man · Post by **Space_Man** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:03 pm

Really quickly, let me just make sure I’m clearly understanding everything:
• He is a long-since ex-boyfriend, who you still stay in regular contact with, right?
• The incident that occurred with him happened a while ago, while the two of you were still “boyfriend & girlfriend,” right? How long-ago was that now?

Neats wrote:…He didn't do this to hurt me. But he doesn't realize how much he did hurt me. I'm not sure if he's even aware that he did anything wrong...

Think about this for a bit—maybe it will have some bearing on the over-all situation, and maybe it won’t, but: TO YOUR MIND, what importance would his intent (at the time of the incident) play in this? For instance, if he were to admit that he was just experiencing some horny, frisky selfishness, how would you react to that—how would it make you feel? Conversely, if he admitted that (at least on some level) he knew what he was doing was wrong…but proceeded anyway…how would that type of confession make you feel?

Neats wrote:…Whether it hurts his feelings or not, it's time for a wake-up call. Right now, I'm not sure if his wake-up call should be in the form of a gentle verbal slap, a mighty two-by-four of doom, or somewhere in between.

Now, let me ask this: What do YOU want to accomplish by confronting him with this in the first place? Is it more about what you are feeling ever since it happened, and your wish to express how hurt it made you feel? …Or is it more about you wanting to get HIM to “get-it”—to see that what he did was wrong, and that he perhaps needs to really examine his own attitudes towards both women & sexuality? This point, too, might have some bearing on how you approach the situation…

Neats · Post by **Neats** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:26 am

Space_Man wrote:• He is a long-since ex-boyfriend, who you still stay in regular contact with, right?

Correct, except for the long-since part. The break-up was a little over two months ago. I see him about once a week, and talk to him three of four times a week.

Space_Man wrote:• The incident that occurred with him happened a while ago, while the two of you were still “boyfriend & girlfriend,” right? How long-ago was that now?

It happened the week before he broke up with me, so about three months ago.

Space_Man wrote:Think about this for a bit—maybe it will have some bearing on the over-all situation, and maybe it won’t, but: TO YOUR MIND, what importance would his intent (at the time of the incident) play in this? For instance, if he were to admit that he was just experiencing some horny, frisky selfishness, how would you react to that—how would it make you feel? Conversely, if he admitted that (at least on some level) he knew what he was doing was wrong…but proceeded anyway…how would that type of confession make you feel?

If it were selfishness... Hurt. Well, that much is obvious, but I mean I would feel like I wasn't worth enough in his eyes for him to pay more attention and be aware of what I wanted or didn't want. Or disappointed that he didn't have the maturity to control himself. Or, most likely, both. If he were to tell me that he knew it was wrong and did it anyway, I think I would probably freak out. I would be very, very angry.

Space_Man wrote:Now, let me ask this: What do YOU want to accomplish by confronting him with this in the first place? Is it more about what you are feeling ever since it happened, and your wish to express how hurt it made you feel? …Or is it more about you wanting to get HIM to “get-it”—to see that what he did was wrong, and that he perhaps needs to really examine his own attitudes towards both women & sexuality? This point, too, might have some bearing on how you approach the situation…

Both...but the second more than the first. I want him to know not to treat someone like that again. I don't know if I can get that across to him without expressing how hurt I feel, but I kind of wish I could. I'm not one for expressing negative feelings, which is part of why I'm here at all.

Neats · Post by **Neats** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:09 am

Okies...

So I saw him today. We took a very long walk and had a very long talk which included a great many "I'm sorry"'s on his part. And a lot of hesitation on my part to get to the point, but when I got there the look on his face...pretty much said it all. He really did think that I had changed my mind.

Space_Man · Post by **Space_Man** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:19 pm

Neats wrote:He really did think that I had changed my mind.

So, it mostly seemed to have been a misunderstanding on his part then? Did you feel satisfied with that explanation?

Neats · Post by **Neats** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:44 pm

Space_Man wrote:So, it mostly seemed to have been a misunderstanding on his part then? Did you feel satisfied with that explanation?

Well...sort of. I mean, I believe him. In that sense, I am satisfied with the explanation. He's a terrible liar, and I know that he's not the most aware guy in the world. But I got angry about this for the first time yesterday because he should have been aware. Even if he did not intend to hurt me, he did, and it's not because I hadn't already made it clear what I did or did not want.

dreams · Post by **dreams** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:54 pm

Had you changed your boundaries before? Had you said no and then later changed your mind about something else? Was he thinking this was the same? I think as you said before the look on his face probably said it all. He hurt you but i don't think this counts as sexual abuse.

What you need to concentrate on his how you are going to recover from this now. Think about you.

dreams

bus