Visual thoughts? **SI, SU, violence**

tips on how to cope: dealing with your feelings, dealing with the consequences of self-harm in your life. share your ideas and maybe pick up some new skills, too. you don't have to want to stop to learn something new here.

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Post by Proximity » Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:17 am

this has been a very interesting thread to read.

I experience something of this sort, but not in nearly as harsh a form as most of the people who have posted here have expressed.

For me, yes the images are visual, but they are not something I "see" they aren't like flashes across my vision, but rather images that are clearly in my head. which may help to keep them from being as frightening to me.

I have always thought in a mixture of visuals and language along with vague feelings or impressions of things, but this violence does not come to me in the relm of words or in that of actual violent feelings, or fearful feelings.

But they do come in the form of pictures, sometimes moving but always very brief usually either the inflicting of an injury or the injury itself.
usually self inflicted, though on occasion I have had images of doing violence to others.

At one point in time in my life I considered this being "triggered" if something occurred that "made"(= forced somehow, being not my fault of course... :roll: ) me see an image like this, I would consider that thing to be triggering. So it was strange to me that I would find sometimes being happy and at ease to be "triggering"

later when I gave up SI I came to realize that these feelings or images did not need to be associated with any action on my part or desire to execute what I had "seen".
So now when I see these flashes, or think about violent things (in images) for a moment I am able to let them pass as simply a thought that is neither good nor bad, nor even neutral, but simply exists as it is.

I have studied a number of philosophies and religions, and am currently studying buddhism .. though I am not buddhist. but something that I learned from that religio-philosophy is that we do not have to react to our thoughts, we can simply let them be as they are. That thoughts don't necessarially come from anywhere or need to go anywhere.
these images are only "triggering" if we let them be so.

of course not "letting" them be triggering is something that would take some time and work and concentration, but ultimately, for me, it was worth it.

I don't know if this would work for someone for whom these images were more intense, as I said mine were ... startleing, jarring, disquieting, but they did not evoke fear in me.

thanks for the opportunity to talk about this, it wasn't something I was ever really able to word so directly before.

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Post by real » Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:40 am

I find the images terrifying most of the time, & have been getting them for about 17 years. I admire your equanimity about the images you have had Proximity (not to diminish your experiences). I "know" logically that I would be better off not letting them affect me but, & I realise this is an excuse, I feel worn down by them. The more I have tried to not react to them, meditate, do yoga, fight against them, or whatever tactic I have implemented, it just seems to exacerbate them, as if they or whatever causes them have minds of their own. I realise that this sounds bizarre. As I said previously, doing things to improve my life, enjoy it, accomplish things, take on challenges or feel good about myself exacerbates the images too. The only thing that seems to work is to numb my feelings & avoid life by doing not much more than surviving.

Sorry for ranting. I have not wanted to talk about it with many people, so this is all gushing out now that I've got the opportunity to rave on about it on BUS. Being able to talk about it here has helped me let go of some of the shame, at least. I have lost contact with some people I've told about it (I'm not surprised, really), & the therapists I've told didn't seem to know how to deal with it, although they were very good. I was very afraid to talk about it to government welfare departments, most health professionals, etc., because I was afraid I would just be branded as psychotic & force fed medication. I know that medication would not help this.

Thanks for your thoughtful post, Proximity, & everyone else.

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Post by real » Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:27 am

I've had a lot of issues come up & have been processing a lot due to reading various threads.

Now, I am convinced that the SI/SU images I get are some sort of messages from my unconcscious or some aspects of myself. I give a few examples following.

Because a lot of them are SU, I think that deep down I hate & loathe myself, & want to destroy myself.

I get images about my eyes, neck/throat, heart centre & face. These would seem to be, respectively, because there are things that I don't want to "see"/acknowledge about myself &/or life; things I'm trying to stop myself saying; wanting to tear out or destroy the part(s) of me that feel heart-broken; & wanting to destroy my face/identity/self.

I am going to buy a book on how to work with dreams this afternoon, because I think such imagery can be worked with & processed in the same way as dreams. I feel very hopeful about this strategy because I think that I'm on to something which could help to deal with this painful phenomenon which has tortured me for far too many years.

I'll keep you informed.
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Post by ladymorgaine » Thu Dec 04, 2003 10:42 pm

*SI/SU/etc.*





I saw this post and was so glad. I feel like I'm going crazy. Daily, hourly I have these wretched violent images of myself. I probably shouldn't go into detail, but they are very graphic in SI nature... I also see my suicide a lot. I've had dreams too of my suicide. I hate when I'm driving or just working and suddenly in my head pops this image of a horrible car crash and me as the driver, or other things. Sometimes the images aren't of me though... they're of other people. I feel as though I'm going nuts sometimes and can't even believe what I'm seeing in my head.

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Post by real » Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:08 am

Welcome. ladymorgaine.

Another thing that I think is related is a person's "archetypal defences". I really related to this concept when I read about it in "The Inner World of Trauma" (subtitled something like "Archetypal Defenses of the Personal Spirit") by Donald Kalsched, a Jungian analyst. Most of it is very academic & dry, except for the fairytale stuff he has at the end. His thesis is that if people are traumatised very young then they develop these archetypal defences to survive, and to protect one's inner core (my words). However, they invariably become distorted and overprotect. The examples he gives are if a person becomes vulnerable with a partner, potential partner, lover, etc., or with a therapist, then these distorted defences see the vulnerability as a threat or inviting danger, or something, so they (paradoxically) traumatise the "host" person (ie. us), so that the person will retreat from the "threatening" situation &, therefore, protect the inner core. I would add that becoming "vulnerable" spiritually or towards God also instigates these defences. The ways these defences traumatise us are probably many, & include the images we have talked about. I think that this might be a piece of the puzzle, rather than the/an "answer".

There is hope, though. It is complicated to explain, but the defences (paradoxically, again) aid in their transformation.

There is lots about his writing/ideas on the internet, so there is no need to buy his (expensive) book.
Last edited by real on Fri Dec 19, 2003 7:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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A man's [/woman's] conquest of himself [/herself] dwarfs the ascent of Everest -Eli Schleifer

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Post by Priceless » Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:58 pm

I´ve been reading the talk in here and its been interesting.
i dont have a clue about any psychological stuff about it.
I often get these violent flashes, sometimes I see myself harming myself in various different ways, and they can be very scary and triggering, sometimes they come out of nothing, and sometimes its because I have a object in my hand that could potentially be used to harm myself.
And sometimes they are about other ppl harming me in various unplesant ways.
I really hate them, because they scare me and make me anixous and its very difficult for me just to let them go away, because I feel so uncomfertable afterwards.
My pdoc links them to my depression, and that might be true but I dont know.
I just want them to go away.

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Post by real » Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:37 am

Hi Miss Lucifer,

Your images sound very similar to mine, so I relate a lot to what you say.
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And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom -Anais Nin
A man's [/woman's] conquest of himself [/herself] dwarfs the ascent of Everest -Eli Schleifer

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Post by Priceless » Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:52 pm

Hi real

Its nice to know that im not the only one, not that I think its good that enybody else has it that way.
I haven´t analyzed why I get them and what they are related to, but I think that I should, but it all seems so scary to work with.
I really hope that u strategy works out.
If u wanna talk about that or anything feel free to PM me or add me on the msn.

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Post by real » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:44 pm

I had some images a few days ago, which provided me with some confirmation of my insights into them.

I was with an incapacitated friend, who was angry about various things. When around angry people, I get very anxious, unconfident, indecisive, incompetent, triggered, etc., my mind goes blank, I find it hard to think & do things, & I tend to regress, etc. Because I was already in a bad way, this happened very easily & quickly in his presence. Consequently, he got impatient & angry with me; not overly, but more than I could handle well.

Then I got some images of mutilating & killing him, which I found very distressing.

However, I realised that the images were a malign defence of lashing out against what I found threatening, even though he was (physically) defenceless.
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A man's [/woman's] conquest of himself [/herself] dwarfs the ascent of Everest -Eli Schleifer

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...

Post by kcat » Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:54 pm

I find this stuff hard to explain IRL, like to my T...it is different from a procedural thought, like "I am going to drive my car off the raod into that wall" but a visual that I SEE and FEEL of myself DOING that. I call them "intrusive imagery". I "see" SI on myself that I can't help myself from going and doing, too. It sucks. No one seems to understand it.
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Re: ...

Post by Stellaria » Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:51 am

kcat wrote:No one seems to understand it.
I have also found it hard to explain exactly what I mean, that it's not hallucinations or planned thinking or a conscious act of imagining.

The closest way I can describe it is like a sudden, intense dream while awake, where like in a dream I know that it's not real but the images appear without me feeling in control.

Considering that there are a number of people who seem to be able to relate to it here, it must not be such an unusual thing after all?

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Post by real » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:02 pm

Copied from a thread I started a few minutes ago in the BUS forum, called, "Help, I need something – not sure what". I copied it here because a lot of it is the "Visual Thoughts" SI stuff I get.



Help. I’m hurting & needy but I don’t know what I need. I have felt vulnerable for the last few days but I got quite distressed after reading & responding to a thread about whether you would start SI’ing if you could make the choice again.

Also, a friend was in tears when she came to see me last night. Another friend of hers had killed herself yesterday, & my friend was concerned about the possibility of me killing myself because of my problems; although I have told her that I wouldn’t because of spiritual reasons & being committed to healing.

Since responding to the abovementioned thread, I have been getting a lot of extreme SI & SU imagery. This is how I SI (rather than physical SI). I was distressed by it, as usual, but I was even more distressed by starting to want more of it & for it to be more extreme. I wanted to punish myself with it. This is new & I am very anxious about it.

I feel a need to cry, but I can’t or won’t.

Since joining BUS several months ago, I’ve felt a great neediness to be on BUS, & I’ve got in touch with more & more emotional pain. My neediness, emptiness, despair & various things don’t seem to be satisfied by hugs, although I appreciate people offering them & their intentions. I think I feel helped by being around people with similar experiences & who accept each other despite all of our problems; and by knowing that people care about each other on BUS. However, I feel that I am a worthless nothing & don’t believe that people care for me here or IRL. This is not making sense. Although I have felt caring for people on BUS, & the start of love, it seems to have backfired into violent self-hate & a desire to hurt & punish myself. I feel so desperately alone, unloved & unlovable. Despairing. Worthless. Deserving to be hurt, punished, violated. Deserving neverending pain.
Last edited by real on Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom -Anais Nin
A man's [/woman's] conquest of himself [/herself] dwarfs the ascent of Everest -Eli Schleifer

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Post by real » Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:49 pm

Many, many thanks CliffsOfAvalon,

I agree TOTALLY with and appreciate the things you said. We even seem to have similar spiritual perspectives. This "image" stuff is in the BUS & Coping forums now, & it looks as though we're getting into spirituality also.
CliffsOfAvalon wrote:real...I relate. I remember when I first found bus when I was "in the thick of it" back in college. In some ways it was a relief to find out that I wasn't alone...that I wasn't a weirdo. But it was hard, because it's like that opened a whole new door for me. It's like, now that I understood what was going on a little better and trying to face it, this flood of pain and hurt and confusion washed over me. This is *OK*. These are feelings that you have been carrying around with you for a LONG time, locked down tight inside. You have been using SI to deal with these things a long time, and now that you're willing to look your SI in the face and consider a life without SI, you're finding out that there's all these emotions there that you're going to have to learn to deal with in a new way. This is totally normal.
This gave me a HUGE insight. Initially, I thought that I am getting all these dark, inner, shadow forces reacting against me for two reasons that came to mind. The first reason is the caring I was feeling for people on BUS, & glimmers of love, & the the tiny bit of caring I allowed myself to feel from BUSers. The second reason is the progress I was making by processing & working through emotional turmoil from being triggered by various BUS threads (all grist for the mill).

Then I realised that I haven't been able to deal with the suppressed emotions, etc., perhaps underlying the images, or associated with them, because no-one had ever related to them or understood until I found the Visual Thoughts thread.
CliffsOfAvalon wrote:The thing that is going to heal you and give you lasting peace isn't something anyone can give to you. It comes from within.
...[cut]
So, my identity depends on what God thinks of me.
...God loves you
...learn to love yourself, and to find a relationship with Diety where you can realize just how much Diety loves you
...
You are a wonderful person who has shown amazing courage on this journey through hell you've had to undertake. Don't give up now. Just hold on, and you'll find your wayl
I have a lot of work & letting go of baggage to do in this regard. Deep down, I seem to hate myself, & think I deserve to be punished for some reason I have not discerned yet. Regarding my relationship with God, I have totally unjustifiably projected on to God (not using any pronouns to avoid genderising) my own self-hate, & fear of abuse. Consequently, I am constantly apologising to God & asking forgiveness for many things. These things include mistakes I make, not doing well enough with things, not being a "good" person (a concept I disagree with but am still dominated by), not being able to find & therefore follow my divine Path, not being grateful or loving enough to God, not doing my spiritual practises or (even worse) not feeling like doing them, and so on, ad nauseam.

I am encouraged by your faith in me, although I don't know where you got it from.
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And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom -Anais Nin
A man's [/woman's] conquest of himself [/herself] dwarfs the ascent of Everest -Eli Schleifer

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Post by real » Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:57 pm

Wendy,

Thanks for that response.

I did get the tongue twister, which is amazing because I'm feeling so wrecked after my emotional turmoil earlier, plus it's nearly 5 a.m. plus I was tired even before I got on to BUS tonight from being up most of the last few nights on BUS also.

I didn't get put off by all the God talk. On the contrary, God is a BIG part of my life. I just don't talk about it much because Australia is faaaaaaaaar more secular than the U.S. and, even on BUS, I don't want to seem like a fanatic, or that I'm proselytising, or something by talking about God. Although I have talked about my beliefs in the Spirituality forum.

I'm finding it hard to keep going now. I think I need sleep more than I need to work on these images, self-hate & related issues.
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And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom -Anais Nin
A man's [/woman's] conquest of himself [/herself] dwarfs the ascent of Everest -Eli Schleifer

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Post by real » Fri Dec 19, 2003 7:08 am

If anyone is interested, I edited my post of Dec 07, to include in my hypothesising that spiritual vulnerability can cause/lead to the SI images also.
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And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom -Anais Nin
A man's [/woman's] conquest of himself [/herself] dwarfs the ascent of Everest -Eli Schleifer

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violence & si

Post by Ipop » Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:39 am

Lot's of violence flashes before my mind before SI, esp. getting punched in the face. Also when my aggression rises against something else (like politics, or injustice) and it suddenly flips into me pounding/slicing my arms.
But based on nothing. Just feel I get a bit aroused by it. NOt sex, but my emotions. Flaming angry, and it is perfectly natural that it gets flamed back on me.
Also was athletic, and now look back to sports injuries with craving, how scraped I'd be all season. Made me feel okay.

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Post by CrawlingKane » Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:45 pm

Hi, I have the same things..i'll be just sitting there not really thinking of anything and all of a sudden I'll see like the chair falling out from under me and the desk falling and a pipe going through my leg and stuff...and I actually feel like a numb sensation when i see it happen..and it feels soo good...and i just want it to happen and this happens soo much and walking around town and stuff..just waiting for something to happen and me to feel it again..and wanting it...and I see alot of it when i'm alone and not thinking of a certain thing, but just suddenly it hits and it goes just as fast as it came..it is the wierdest thing..and whenver i ask anyone if they ahve the same thing..they look at me strange and then walk away.... :(
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Post by real » Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:59 am

Hi,

Welcome to BUS Ipop and CrawlingKane. I find it to be fantastic place, with lots of great people, who are very supportive & so on. I hope that you find it as good as I have.
CrawlingKane wrote:I have the same things..i'll be just sitting there not really thinking of anything and all of a sudden I'll see like the chair falling out from under me and the desk falling and a pipe going through my leg and stuff...

...and this happens soo much and walking around town and stuff..just waiting for something to happen and me to feel it again..

...and I see alot of it when i'm alone and not thinking of a certain thing, but just suddenly it hits and it goes just as fast as it came..it is the wierdest thing..and whenver i ask anyone if they ahve the same thing..they look at me strange and then walk away.... :(
It sounds as though you have very similar experiences to mine, although I very rarely seek it or want more - I never had until I was in a particularly self-hateful mood recently.

I can see that it is painful & isolating for you when you reach out to people about it & they walk away. I had always kept it to myself because I thought people would never understand. I have found a lot of relief by knowing that other BUSers have similar experiences to mine, although I wish that none of us had them.

All the best in your journey,

real
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And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom -Anais Nin
A man's [/woman's] conquest of himself [/herself] dwarfs the ascent of Everest -Eli Schleifer

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Post by real » Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:31 am

Hi All,

Does anyone know of any research about the sorts of SI/SU visual imagery that we get - psychotherapeutic or whatever? Or, even better, any web sites, or internet or other support groups???? If we get such images, then I'm sure lots of other people in the world do too, so there must be stuff out there; but I couldn't find any on the internet.

I felt a LOT of relief just knowing that other people experience similar things. I felt understood, a sort of kinship & sense of relating/belonging, a place where I could "be", rather than my usual feelings of separation/alienation. I thought something like, "At last, somebody UNDERSTANDS!" Also, it gave me some hope about doing something about it.

I don't feel as though I relate to many other BUSers, those who cut, etc., but don't seem to have this sort of imagery; & feel that they probably don't relate to me because I don't "physically" SI. So, I'm starting to feel alienated again. ......... I don't know, it's very confusing. I relate to many BUSers in many ways, eg. re abuse histories, lack of self-esteem, fears, problems coping in the world, etc., etc.

But, I just feel that I want to do something about the images that I get. Working on healing other aspects of my life would probably help, & I am doing things to deal with those areas/issues. However, I feel SO HELPLESS & HOPELESS regarding the images.

Can anyone help????????????
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And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom -Anais Nin
A man's [/woman's] conquest of himself [/herself] dwarfs the ascent of Everest -Eli Schleifer

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Post by Stellaria » Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:18 pm

I thought of OCD (Obsessional Compulsive Disorder) as a condition where people suffered from compulsive rituals (such as hand washing or counting things). I don't do that so I haven't looked too close at OCD before, which is why I found it interesting to read about obsessions, and that not all persons with OCD necessarily have compulsions that they act out. Thoughts or images or impulses of violence seem to be one 'classic' form of obsessions.

I haven't really made my mind up yet about anything, but people may find a couple of links interesting:

www.oup.co.uk/pdf/0-19-851537-5.pdf
If you can't/don't want to download pdf files, you can read it instead in the Google cache here:
http://www.google.se/search?q=cache:Uke ... 1537-5.pdf
- The nature of obsessions - a very interesting-looking chapter from a book - as far as I have been able to figure out, it must be The Treatment of Obsessions by Stanley Rachman
http://human-nature.com/nibbs/03/rachman.html
Obsessions are repetitive, unwanted thoughts, images, or impulses that a person finds unacceptable and/or repugnant. They are among the most distressing psychological problems and can be mentally exhausting. Struggling against obsessions is a lonely, private battle. The three main themes of obsessions are unacceptable aggressive, sexual, or blasphemous thoughts. The person is distressed by these unwanted, repugnant, and seemingly inexplicable impulses, images or thoughts.
(...)
Given that most of the people who are seriously affected by obsessions have high moral and/or religious standards, these ideas are extremely objectionable and give rise to self-doubt, self-distrust, feelings of degradation, and anxiety about their true personality. They fear that the obsessional experiences indicate that they have lurking inside their seemingly virtuous personality, secret thoughts and ideas that are dangerous, wicked, disturbing and unsafe (e.g. 'I must be a very bad person'). Many patients are intensely fearful that one day they will lose control and carry out the repugnant actions
From http://www.crufad.unsw.edu.au/self_help ... level2.htm
In some cases of OCD, intrusive and distressing thoughts are prominent and do not appear to be associated with any particular ritual or compulsion. Examples of such obsessions include parents who think they might kill their child, frequent blasphemous thoughts, or the fear that one has contracted AIDS.

In these cases the treatment principles will need to be applied to the obsessive thoughts (as well as to any associated rituals). Special expertise is required in these difficult cases since it is possible that a less experienced clinician may inadvertently worsen the situation. Therefore, referral to a clinician with specialised training and skills is recommended if such obsessions are prominent.
* next quote contains a bit of graphic violence
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http://print.google.com/print/doc?isbn=0679442227
- a book presentation of Tormenting Thoughts and Secret Rituals by Ian Osborn,
I suffered obsessive -compulsive disorder myself while in medical training. Terrifying, tormenting thoughts often popped unbidden into my mind, causing surges of panic and piercing discomforts. The thoughts usually took the form of vibrant, violent images, for instance, of a knife being thrust into my flesh, or of my nose being scraped right off in a car accident.
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Nina
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